• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Revisionists challenge D-day history

CougarDaddy said:
This is not the way the anniversary of that costly invasion should be observed.  :eek: Those revisionists are crazy.

I'm not sure a lot of it is revisionism.  As long as I remember, back to the 1960s, the bombing of Caen was questioned.  As for the supposed grim reception by the French populace, I haven't heard that.  I suspect that having the war in their backyard would make anyone leery.  As far as looting went, I've talked to infantrymen who nabbed the odd chicken or the like but I never got the feeling it was general or substantial.

An old post - similar topic:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28246.0



 
Dennis Ruhl said:
I'm not sure a lot of it is revisionism.  As long as I remember, back to the 1960s, the bombing of Caen was questioned. 

Harris noted it had taken 1,000 tons of bombs to get the army forward one mile. “At this rate it will take 600,000 tons to get them to Berlin.”
Eisenhower was heard to remark the same thing.
 
IMHO, this is not revisionism at all.  Though people wanted the Germans to leave, I'm pretty sure that the French of 1944 were pretty well the same as people today.  In other words, why not invade somewhere else?  Why in my town?

I recall one book in which the same assertion was made.  I also recall that for every resistance member, there were five collaborators.  Probably pure conjecture; however, there it is.

FWIW.
 
Midnight Rambler said:
I also recall that for every resistance member, there were five collaborators.  Probably pure conjecture; however, there it is.

I am only familiar with the Aube department of France, and the area surrounding. I've never visited Normandy. 
After the war, the RCAF sent my grandparents photographs and letters received from the Mussy-Grancey Maquis. 
Having never lived under German occupation, or witnessed Gestapo police methods, it was hard to imagine that entire families - including small children - were being tortured and put to death for helping our airmen whose misfortune it was to be M.I.A. behind enemy lines. As the U.S. Third Army was liberating the area, there were massacres and entire villages being torched.
Years later, my father and I made arrangements to visit the Personnel Records Centre at the National Archives in Ottawa to view Missing Research Enquiry Service M.R.E.S. #136 ( Paris ).
My family has learned from pilgrimages to Aube of the wonderful assistance given by the average French family to our airmen who were Missing in Action.
The Royal ( RCAF airmen were partnered with the RAF in Bomber Command ie: aircrews were combined ) Air Force Association put it this way in a letter dated 23 July 1947 to the people of the Aube area, "We cannot speak highly enough of the great spirit and heroism which was found throughout the entire German occupation." 
This is immediately after all of the surviving aircrew, German PoW's, and local population had been recently interviewed, and the M.R.E.S. ( AKA M.I.A. ) investigations completed.


 
Midnight Rambler said:
IMHO, this is not revisionism at all.  Though people wanted the Germans to leave, I'm pretty sure that the French of 1944 were pretty well the same as people today.  In other words, why not invade somewhere else?  Why in my town?

Spot on. Nobody wanted the war to mark time on their doorstep. I'm sure the same mixed feelings exist in the Netherlands and Belgium. Fair enough, too, that people who survived their homes being obliterated would not join in celebrations.

The story at the top of the thread is a clumsy beat-up. Every Normandy history I've read mentions civilian suffering; it's hardly news. And does anybody remember how Charles de Gaulle liberated France singlehanded? French gratitude (expressed at national level) has been patchy. The French have not sung Allied praises in harmony for the past 65 years. I don't believe in the 'taboo' the writer claims.

Holding up civilians' immediate reaction to liberation as evidence all of Normandy remains "sullen" today is a big reach. It would be interesting to contrast the attitudes of people living in Norman towns that were liberated quickly - Bayeux, say, or Courseulles - with that of people living in Caen or St Lo.

I suppose a revisionist element could be that the writer never mentions the German habit of fortifying built-up areas and forcing the Allies to target people's homes. I recall pics of Atlantikwall bunkers built among seaside villas and camouflaged to look like them (can't find the link, dammit!). What happened to real estate values in Tilly-La-Campagne when 1st SS moved in? Where did the residents of Caen go when the Germans kicked them out of their chalk cave air raid shelters?

Failing to mention these little truths, while quoting Beevor, leads a naive modern reader to assume the Allies caused civilian deaths through carelessness and callousness - that there was no need to target fortified urban areas at all. Suggesting this isn't revisionist, however; it has been accepted wisdom for some time. :(
 
A post at The Torch:

The Canadians in Normandy...
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2009/10/canadians-in-normandy.html

...are noticed in a Washington Post book review. Good...

Mark
Ottawa
 
Retired AF Guy said:
Apparently, the Russians weren't impressed when Beevor wrote "that Russian soldiers, most of them drunk, had raped at least 2m German women during the long advance on Berlin."

Did any author ever write a book on the Russian advance and not mention a large number of rapes?  Has anyone written a book on the Russian army and not mentioned that they were fueled by alcohol?
 
Dennis Ruhl said:
Did any author ever write a book on the Russian advance and not mention a large number of rapes?  Has anyone written a book on the Russian army and not mentioned that they were fueled by alcohol?
From what I've read on the subject, the mass rapes were conducted largely by the rear-echelon troops.  The conjecture was that the front-line troops had satiated their blood-lust and desire for revenge by killing members of the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS.  Also they had themselves had had enough, given the punishment dealt to their own numbers by those same members of the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS.  The depth echelon troops had yet to personally suffer the horrors of the war up front, less the suffering they had felt under the German Jackboot in the occupied territories, and took it out on the only targets left available: German women and girls.
 
They made a movie about it:
http://www.anonyma.film.de/
"Stalin's army of rapists: The  brutal war crime that Russia and Germany tried to ignore" :
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1080493/Stalins-army-rapists-The-brutal-war-crime-Russia-Germany-tried-ignore.html

I worked with man from Eastern Europe who told me that the only thing worse than the German occupation was the Russian liberation. He said that women were treated as "spoils of war to the victors".

 
Back
Top