Reservist Roles?

[Kirkhill]

From Britain
http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/08/30/nta30.xml

They can't get Reservists to turn out.   Those that want to, have already and wont be available for another 3 years. As a result the Army is looking at restructuring the TA (Territorial Army - similar to our Militia)

This quote from a senior serving officer stands out:

"If the proposals mean that the deadwood who dress up but do not deploy decide to leave, that will be a bonus."

Try this one on for size:

Reservists primary role - local emergencies and security - they reallly are only available when their local economy is not functioning normally and they CAN'T go to work.

Reservists secondary role - large scale international conflicts - when the World's economy isn't working and the Government converts ALL national resources to reestablishing global order.

Reservists NON-STARTERS in PEACE-SUPPORT garrison duties or for INTERNATIONAL emergencies or for DOMESTIC emergencies that require them to be deployed outside of their home region for more than 2 weeks on a voluntary basis.   They have to get back to their jobs - and to be honest - the economy needs them there.

Long term deployments and contingency forces DEMAND full-time soldiers.   Part-timers can't deliver what the Government needs internationally or domestically on the cheap.

If you do deploy Part-Timers on long duration duties and pay them like full-timers while deployed they are by definition Full-Timers that have been contracted for a short period.

So three classes of soldiers.  Career Regulars.  Short Contract Regulars.  Part-Time Militia.

Make the Short Contract Regular the point of entry into the CF.  Does well is offered a career.  Wants to get out but stay involved transfer to the Militia.

Militia direct entry would still be encouraged but unless the entrant was capable, able and willing to go for Regular training and accept a Contract posting they would never advance beyond Private soldier. Just like a volunteer Fireman that doesn't take anything more than  Basic Firefighting will never become a local Captain (or whatever their rank structure is).

 

[Blindspot]

Militia direct entry would still be encouraged but unless the entrant was capable, able and willing to go for Regular training and accept a Contract posting they would never advance beyond Private soldier. Just like a volunteer Fireman that doesn't take anything more than   Basic Firefighting will never become a local Captain (or whatever their rank structure is)

Say goodbye to reserve regiments. Unless regulars are assigned to command, instruct and administrate reserve units? What's the incentive to be a reservist if you remain a private? Some civilian trades transfer well to military administrative or support roles. Why as a doctor or a lawyer would one want to become a reservist if it meant staying perpetually as a private?

 

[Kirkhill]

What's the use of a Reservist to the Government if he doesn't take the training and is available for deployment?

I am not saying that a Reservist can't become a General.  I am saying that he can only become a General if he puts the same time-in that a Regular does.  The Regular would do it on a career plan of 20 years with full time service.  The Reservist could conceivably do it with short term contracts and training stints.

As to saying good bye to Militia Regiments, have we said good bye to Volunteer Fire Departments or the Coast Guard Auxiliary? Those are both locally recruited and organized.

 

[12alfa]

Their problems are not ours to begin with.

We put names forward, less than 1/2 are picked up.

We deploy for less money than our reg force brothers, am I going to take a leave form my cive work for less money....no.
As I would think any reg force would deploy for less than his regular pay.

We spend most of our trg days doing mandated training, which we all know is not of much use in deployments.

In my trade (armoured)  we deploy as grunts (no offence), so we are to be re-trained for deployment, another time and money consuming task.

I would recommend taking a res unit(s) and tell them they will provide a coy/pt for the next rotation and then given the $ and support to do so.
Anything less than the facts up front and no one is going to take time from his/her cive job. The "you might go" does not cut it in a res life, as i would think it would be in the regs.

We have no system in place, we are just attaching res to reg force deployments and hoping it will work out.

This needs a study or cive to spend millions of tax payers money to fix..........NOT!

 

[CdnGalaGal]

We deploy for less money than our reg force brothers, am I going to take a leave form my civie work for less money....no.
As I would think any reg force would deploy for less than his regular pay.

I suppose when you get into the higher ranks, we get less than our reg force counterparts. But I am currently deployed and I'm being paid the same as the Reg Force Cpl beside me doing the same job. Same rank, same IPC, same job, same pay.

I would recommend taking a res unit(s) and tell them they will provide a coy/pt for the next rotation and then given the $ and support to do so.
Anything less than the facts up front and no one is going to take time from his/her civie job. The "you might go" does not cut it in a res life, as i would think it would be in the regs.

How about CAN'T go? Many reservists appreciate the flexability offered by this system. I'm a university student, and many of the guys at my res unit are students as well - or have full time jobs from which they cannot AFFORD to leave. The option to put one's name in for a variety of jobs or tour positions is more beneficial than being told you are going. Out of any one unit, if you give its pers a block of time and say "From XX to XX you will provide X number of people" I think you would have a hard time scrounging up the number of people you are looking for.

I do agree, though, that for courses or positions within Canada, a concrete answer should be given rather than a "ho hum yeah sure you're going - unless..." answer. It's rather infuriating to find out 2 weeks before a course that you are actually slotted to go - or are no longer going - and have to rush to accommodate for it.

As for the additional training required when reservists deploy, yes, I can see how that could be a problem. It's costly to conduct training for the reservists leaving, but it would be even MORE expensive to train the entire reserve force continually to deal with more than just the basics of their trades if they are never going to use it (ie go on tour).

One could completely revamp the entire training system, but... can we smell even MORE money burning?  

 

[ackland]

As for the additional training required when reservists deploy, yes, I can see how that could be a problem. It's costly to conduct training for the reservists leaving, but it would be even MORE expensive to train the entire reserve force continually to deal with more than just the basics of their trades if they are never going to use it (IE go on tour).

One could completely revamp the entire training system, but... can we smell even MORE money burning?  

I see your point in your trade but as a combat armes reservist all you need to do to bring say an infanteer up to speed is train him as part of a unit to make it cohesive. He should already have the skills required he just need to refresh them. As for armoured well if the government would just train us on the same veh as the reg it would make this transition easier. Back in the day of the cougar many reservists went on tour and just needed to prove they could drive or gun or comand. Now with the lav'sand death of the Leopard it could be done once again if only more coyote course were offered to the reserves.

 

[Satelliteslayer]

Here I go,

Have all reserve units in a particular brigade fall under the overall command of their respective reg force unit. For example all reserve infantry units in LFWA would be sub companies of the PPCLI. This would allow the PPCLI to mandate which tasks are to be assigned to which units of the reserves.

For example the RMR would specialize in Mtn Ops, The C Scot R and the S H of C would be amphibious........etc.

The reserve units would be given the funding and training syllabus to fulfill these roles AND they would be answerable to the CO of the PPCLI for their training and competency.

In some cases this may mean that the most snr rank in a unit would be a Maj. So be it, it seems ludicrous that a "Regiment" that only has 100 people on strength be commanded by a LCol.

This arrangement would also allow the PPCLI to know who they have in all of their "sub" units as well as the state of training and readiness of all personnel. The RSS assigned to the units would be answerable to the PPCLI, not the reserve unit CO, this would ensure a disconnect that allows untainted passage of information to the higher levels of cmd within the Regiment.

Yes this would mean the elimination of some senior Officer and NCO ranks but the Reserves are part of the Canadian military, not a social gathering of the old British Empire Club.

If we want better results from our Reservists we need to expect better competence from them not less.

Of course things like Job protection legislation and various terms of service options would be beneficial.

 

[Lance Wiebe]

Satelliteslayer, what the heck is CP-00?

Aside from that, you bring up some valid points.  The execution requires some work though, I think. 

To have the reserves actually train to fill requirements or shortfalls in the regular army would be a bonus.  However, I don't think that the CO's of 1, 2 or 3 PPCLI should be mandating Unit training.  To train a Unit in a role is one thing, to have one CO change it when he takes over because he sees a different need would be ludicrous.  Each area should be told "X number of airmobile, X number of...., and so on, and then each area can have units specialise.  That specialty would remain forevermore....

Also, the Infantry as a Corps, have personnel posted to Standards Cells.  These people are responsible to ensure that the training standard is being met by all units, regular and reserve.  While a CO is responsible for the standard of training, the actual verification of training standards are completed by each Corps Standards Cells.  The standard of training for reserve units should not be evaluated by any particular Battalion.

 

[Satelliteslayer]

CP-00 is Cambrian Patrol 2000, a NATO patrolling competition put on by the UK. Very good training...

I agree with you regarding standards etc and it was not my intention that each Battalion CO can change a reserve units training our status at will.

My general intent is that we need to move away from reserve units being entities on to themselves, they should be plugged into the system and better reflect their potential role within the CF.

We still run a system for the reserves that is a hold over from WWII. The units have all of the structure in place to form a regiment and all that is needed is to get troops and train them., at which point the Regt will be off to the war.

This is arcane thinking in this come as you are era of conflict that we are in.

I believe that NDHQ would like to do a major over haul of the reserves but the fact is that many reserve units wield immense political power and have the ability to scare away any wayward bureaucrat that strays to close to their "club house"

What the reserves need to be relevent is a new structure and mandate. There are many very good troops and Officers in the reserve units, there are just as many snr NCOs and Officers that use the units as nothing more than an exclusive social club.

 

[Lance Wiebe]

What the reserves need to be relevent is a new structure and mandate. There are many very good troops and Officers in the reserve units, there are just as many snr NCOs and Officers that use the units as nothing more than an exclusive social club.

On this we can certainly agree.  The reserves would get a huge boost if they were actually given a raison d'etre, and the equipment for them to train to meet a set requirement.

 

[logau]

The Army is like a cheap house - there are glass windows with radiators and polyethylene windows without. Those in the warm room tax the crap out of their cheap room friends to come in to their room. Then they tell the new comers that they are professionals when most wars are over in less time than it takes to get an apprenticeship or a degree. And they are up against Johnny the IED bomber who has no education and   big force behind him. Johnny makes the people in the warm room very uncomfortable.

Since there are two classes of windows sooner or later the cheaper window will fail or no one will want to sleep in that room. The cheap rooms will be hard to maintain. Sooner or later - likely sooner - the people sleeping in the cheap room will figure out they can get into a nicer room elsewhere for less hassle.

In the real world you get what you pay for - the Army can't kill off the reserves and it has no mandate to fund them properly. The government has given DND no mandate to fund itself properly.

Where does that leave the regulars? A thankless task in a craven department that fills their heads with nonsense that Canadians support them - they don't. The funding that DND gets shows this in spades.

As for what reserves should and shouldn't do - consider this

The USA has 257,000 troops deployed overseas.

Canada has maybe 3,000 of which half or a bit better are over worked and WAY Underpaid Combat Arms.

Do we matter?   :threat: Make my day   :

 

[RCA]

So the role of the reserves is to be a man power pool for the Reg F. If a reservist is non-deployable, too bad make him a civvy. And units are holding vessels for this pool.

And all this at 85% pay and no benefits. Open the flood gates, people will be beating to get in. You want to kill the reserves, then this would be the way to go.

Or this isn't what you mean. As to the social club analogy. That gets old pretty fast and really hasn't been true for quite a few number of years.

As to the 100 man Regiments, What Reg F unit is up to strenght in Canada. There has been cases of Battery strengths within the RCHA at 50 or less at times. At one point, Firing Troop in Shilo was larger then any single bty within 1 RCHA.

 

[Brad Sallows]

First, a couple of minor observations:

1) The CBG and LFA commanders will probably want to retain the authority to task their reserve elements.

2) Unity of command requires that if the RSS are to be answerable to someone outside the reserve unit, then one of the RSS must be the reserve unit CO.

Anything proposed must have a clear and singular line of command authority from the armoury floor to the CDS.  IMNSHO, turning the reserves into regimental fiefdoms is not a satisfactory solution.

Now, what I see as the crux of the (ongoing) reserve role discussion:

The "militia" are citizens willing to train up in preparation, and be available over a sizeable chunk of their lives, to be called out - infrequently and only necessarily - during emergencies (Public Welfare, Public Order, International, or War).  Discretionary involvements in small conflicts, humanitarian missions, and ongoing peace support operations are not emergencies.

Infrequently and for short periods, it is acceptable and possible to surge some militia to meet unusual commitments without fully mobilizing or disrupting the militia.  However, under pressure to meet successive commitments in excess of resources, we have chosen to eat the seed corn year after year.  The militia are withering.

Some people continue to deny the true character of our militia (as described above) and seek to mutate it into some new category of citizen-soldier between "militia" and "regular".  We already have it, but we don't use it - the Special Force.  This is why I keep harping on the idea of mobilizing contingents under the Special Force.  Extraordinary military commitments require extraordinary, but limited, military mobilizations.

 

[Kirkhill]

AMEN Brad...

 

[Satelliteslayer]

Having recently come to the regular force from the reserves I would have to dispute your claim that the social club no longer exists in the reserves.

I will agree that it does not exist in the Jr ranks of the NCOs and Officers, however in the Snr ranks, with exceptions, the social club is strong in the reserves and I present the following reason why....

When a new troop comes into the reserves he, or she is very keen to perform, they want to take any course they can get and participate in any deployment or exercise they can... in short they want to be effective.

As people progress in the reserves they MAY become disillusioned, esp if they go on a NATO tour and come back to their unit. As they progress in rank and life takes over....job....wife/husband....kids...... they realize that they can no longer afford to go on any tours and very few excesses; however they do not want to give up on the Regt. they have many friends there and many memories but their emphasis changes to the social aspect of the Regt.

Since they are now in Snr positions they look at the unit from their own perspective and they will not entertain anything that would push them out, no matter how "ineffective" they have become because they are now into the "social club" scene.

You can deny it if you want, and maybe your unit is the exception to the rule, but I saw it in my unit and friends from other reserve units have expressed the same observations in their units.

The simple fact is that Reserves 2000 and MANY of the Honorary Colonels of various units. mine included put pressure on the powers that be in order to maintain the status quo at any cost.

The fact that the reserve units are a foot print in the community cannot be an excuse for them to NOT be effective as a unit. Take a very serious look at your unit.... for most reserve units only 25% of the members are deployable.....25%.

This is not to say that the reg force is all high speed and low drag..... the difference is that in the reg force, if you are not "deployable" it has career implications... in the reserves, you go back to the mess...

I now put on my helmet and hunker down in my fighting posn waiting for the onslaught.

 

[Satelliteslayer]

Further to my last post I would submit this proposal:

I read this in the past and it made sense to me, the concept of having an "unlimited liability" reserve category. This posn would only be available to fully qual QL4 or QL5 as the case may be troops on a strictly voluntary basis.

They would contact the unit rep and put forward the request to serve on an unlimited liability basis.

What would this do? many members have the ability to present themselves to DND on a long term commitment basis but still have a "real" job. They would be aware that if they signed up for this term of service they could be called up at any time to fulfill any role, be it deployment or training, with a short warning period.

This would allow the member and the military to take advantage of training opportunities and exercises that may not be available to the "limited liability" reservist.

While on this term of service the member would be paid 100% for any time spent at the unit as well as full med and dental and any other benefits that a reg force member would have.

The member would have to give 30 days notice of  their intentions to no longer partake in the program at which time they would revert to their old status.

Thoughts??

 

[Spr.Earl]

First and for most what is needed too help the Reserves to become more effective is effective Legislation to allow the Reservist to go off and get effective and meaningfull training and be allowed to Volunteer for over seas Ops. with out the worry of job loss.

Case in point.
A freind of mine was a Police man with a force here in the Lower Maninland and he asked for a leave of absence to go over to Boania,they refused to let him go,he just quit and went, did his Tour and when he came back home got another job with another Police Dept.
This is one of things we need Legislation for to make us more effective but this will never happen untill the Gov. changes it Defence Policy.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>for most reserve units only 25% of the members are deployable

Could you clarify?  Do you mean only 25% are available to pack up and go right now, or only 25% will show up if an emergency is declared and the militia are called?  What is "deployable", and how much of the militia should be "deployable"?

The "unlimited liability" reservist: someone who on short notice (what is short?) can and will pack up and go.  (Sounds like a job for full-timers to me.)  How many people should we hope to find who meet this criterion?

1) The unemployed: sure, why not?  (But why are they unemployed?)
2) The employed: anyone willing to blow off their job, or working for an exceptionally flexible employer.
3) The students: anyone willing to blow off a year of school.

Should the reserves consist of more than unemployed people?  (I hesitate to imagine how we could build any sort of reserve leadership by hoping to find people who can survive unemployed by choice for many years of their adult lives.)  How many people have a shallow commitment to their job or education?

I think maintaining a ULR (Unlimited Liability Reserve) List would be a real headache.  "Put me on."  Four months later: "Take me off."  Eight months later: "Put me on".  Etc.

I am curious to know what the "social club" reservist is.  Is this someone whose life is so pathetic the only thing he has to look forward to is one evening a week in the mess?  Is it someone who manages to skate along from year-to-year without any real unit duties?

 

[Spr.Earl]

I'm attached to a A.E.F. and everyone who joins is told that you will be ready to move when needed and signs a form and excepts the conditions on joining and we are given a form as to how much time we would need to clear up our own Pers. affairs before being deployed.
I said 30 days but in  a real need I can go in 5 days.

Yes the old Militia Social Club still does live!

 

[Satelliteslayer]

Brad

"Do you mean only 25% are available to pack up and go Right now"

Yes I mean that statistically, for a unit of 100 pers, only 25 of them will be deployable on call. Be this because of med/dent, fin, pers problems. Lack of primary quals, unable to lve work/school, etc, etc. Basically if you went in to any res unit on "Stand to" in September and asked "who is available to lve for a deployment in 30 days" how many hands would shoot up?

"unlimited liability"...(sounds like a job for full-timers to me)"
Well, count the number of people in your unit who put their name in for B?A contracts and over seas tours and you have a idea of the people available for said positions.

"should the reserves consist of more than unemployed people?" How many people do we have in B/A posn around the country......I mean come on the reserves could cripple DND if all the pers on Cl B?A contracts called in sick on the same day..... most Reg force pers don't realize how many reservists man posn in BORs around the country and NDHQ. If these people cane do a 20 yr career as a Cl B/A reservist I know there are many who would be available for an "unlimited liability" contract.

As for the on again off again flip flop of troops for contracts I am sure you will find that most people will take a contract when given to them and do what ever is required to keep it.

"I am curious to know what the "social club" reservist is,  Is this someone whose life is so pathetic the only thing he has to look forward to is one evening a week in the mess?........YES it is......

next question???