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Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]

Incidentally, the final authority on PER Greivances was delegated about 2 years ago to Base Commanders (or equivalent) and is no longer DGCFGA. Now I know there was/is a message to this effect however do not recall which series or where it is located.
 
I recently had a PER grievance finalized.  It started in Nov of 2006 when I filed it with my CO and finished with a supplementary PER board on 27 May 2008.  It was supposedly not a "grievance" as my former CO just had the PER rewritten but it still had to go through DMCARM.

The result?  Promotion effective 01 Jan 2007.  ;D  It'll probably be one of those examples of grievances on the Ombudsman page.  ;)
 
thank you soo much to everyone who has responded so throughly! It is really very much appreciated to see all this support. It puts the wind to my back and the sun on my face. It's been quite demoralizing at my unit, and this gives me the fresh vigor and morale to persue this task with greater vigor.

Ironically, I have been going through informal channels, politely asking to see PDR's and have my PER ammended to reflect my 07FY training, not just the 2 exercises which my superriors primarially focused on. So the ironic part is that they lost my PDR which praised me for my work and included my training for my summer tasking, which it is the units responsibility to attain and hold all PDR's and evaluations so that the member can be properly assessed ( i found this in formal doctrine i think the QR&O's but i do not have the ref in front of me ATM) ; despite this shortcoming, they actually want me to file a redress. Maybe they think I'm bluffing or something.

I mentioned in an email that i would prefer to deal with this informally, however if the deadline approaches and little is being done to ammend the situation i will submit a redress. The responce i receivd from my OC, was more or less "well if you want to have it changed, file a redress." Are we not to try and resolve these things at the lowest level? Oh well. Im a university student, so i certainly know how to write an argument and cite my sources, if you ask me, i shouldn't have any issues winning this case, and will have paper documentation to prove that they were not diligently filling their duties at the unit. Inter rank warfare! Sadly its come to this, but im gettting amped to stick it to the man. ( no offence to any of 'the mans' out there. )
 
my other question, is: i have looked for a specific quote which i can reference that states something to the effect 'without prior couselling on an issue, a member can not be faulted for a shortcoming in a PER.' I have searched quite throughly many ref's in the QR&O's and other gov't sources, but can not find that specific example. Any help would be much appreciated, so that i can ref it in my memo.

Thank you all so much again for your support.
 
pte4life said:
politely asking to see PDR's

I hope that from now on, you will ask for, and get, a copy of your PDRs so that this :

is that they lost my PDR

Doesnt have as much of an impact in any future issues.


 
CDN Aviator said:
I hope that from now on, you will ask for, and get, a copy of your PDRs so that this :

Doesnt have as much of an impact in any future issues.

Agreed, you may find statements saying that the unit is responsible, etc, etc but ultimately, you are your own career manager!
 
For a little perspective from the Naval side of the house. for some  reason the navy decided at some point in time that it would be a wonderful idea to keep divisional notes on it's personnel for the purpose of writing PDR's and PER's. I think I remember from some time way back at the beginning of my career someone saying that technically we are not supposed to do that but I'm not sure. However, div notes are beneficial in that it allows supervisors to keep track of exercises, deployments, shortcomings and exeplary perfromance of it's members. We also keep copies of PDR's and PER's with the dive notes. this allows more accurate tracking of a members performance thruout the year. On the members side however, for myself, I always keep a file of all evaluations/letters of appreciation and my own set of divnotes on myself. This means that come PER season I am able to give my supervisor an accurate accounting of my years perfomance. I always advise my subordinates to maintain some sort of record for themselves that may be submitted for use on request. All in all it works fairly well and just like someone stated earlier, it is your career, the more you keep track of it yourself, the better off you will be in the event that you do feel the need to redress a PDR or PER.
Hope what I have said makes some sort of sense to you
FEET
 
M Feetham said:
div notes are beneficial in that it allows supervisors to keep track of exercises, deployments, shortcomings and exeplary perfromance of it's members.

Thats exactly what the PDR system is for. Theres no need for a seperate system to keep track of these things when a part 5 PDR can be produced for these things. PDRs are not just a quarterly instrument.

Like you said, each member should keep a record for him/herself of everything that they do for the year. My subordinates all do and when it comes time for a PDR / PER i use it to make sure nothing was missed in the previous PDRs.

 
Yup.  Keep a log of sorts.  There's nothing more irritating for a supervisor than to receive a part3/4 with 3 lines on it.
 
for some  reason the navy decided at some point in time that it would be a wonderful idea to keep divisional notes on it's personnel for the purpose of writing PDR's and PER's.

The Canadian Navy adopted this (and the Divisional System as a whole) from the Royal Navy.  It was reinforced following the release of the Mainguy Report.

http://www.navalandmilitarymuseum.org/resource_pages/controversies/mainguy.pdf

I can't remember when the Guide to the Divisional System was created, but the latest version was signed in 2001, and states, in part:

The Divisional system, which is unique to the Navy, provides a framework for sound leadership for supervisors, be they Officers or Non-Commissioned Members (NCMs), of the Regular and Reserve Forces.

Here is the link, albeit to the DIN:

http://navy.dwan.dnd.ca/english/refs/pubs/divguide/intro.asp

I don't know how unique it actually is...perhaps it was a unique system at one time...I don't know if the army/air force use it or not.  Perhaps a "mutiny" is not something that ever occurs in the army/air force, and "technically" (according the Report) we never had a "mutiny" either.  I can understand why such a thing might happen on a ship, in crappy conditions, in the middle of the ocean with no other effective recourse if the Ship's Company should disagree with the Course Of Action decided on by the Captain. Regardless, the failure in leadership circa the Report is clear indication the Navy did not, historically, do a very good job looking out for the welfare and morale of our sailors. However, the use of divisional notes is a mandatory practice in the Navy.  I have probably had a half dozen PERs overturned/rewritten (on behalf of subordinates) owing to the lack of Divisional Notes - that is a no-brainer when it happens, which is far too often.  I actually get a little giddy when I see that coming - serves the Divisional Officer right for doing such a disservice.

think I remember from some time way back at the beginning of my career someone saying that technically we are not supposed to do that but I'm not sure.

As for someone debating whether div notes are legal or not, here is another excerpt from the Guide to the Divisional System:

•  The Divisional Officer’s Notes Sheets (DIVNOTES) (Annex B) allow for a continuous Record of Performance from which assessments may be compiled. They are used for recording personal concerns if they have had a detrimental effect on performance, or for recurring requests, all of which may have a bearing on the member’s performance or employment. Letters of appreciation or displeasure are to be noted. DO and DCPO are reminded that members can have their DIVNOTES in accordance with Access to Information regulations.  It reduces staff work and hastens the provision of DIVNOTES if the members now access their DIVNOTES through an informal request to the Ship’s Office. Persons releasing the DIVNOTES must ensure that the intent of the Privacy Act is respected, checking that the DIVNOTES contain no names or reference to third parties (i.e. persons other than the member to whom the DIVNOTES pertain).

DIVNOTES are to be retained by the Divisional Officer.  If the member (to whom the DIVNOTES pertain) is posted, the records are to be sealed, dated and sent with the UPR to the new unit.  These records are to be opened only with the new Commanding Officers approval.  If a member is posted outside CMS, the DIVNOTES will remain in the Formation.  The responsibility to ensure that these records are removed from the member’s permanent file should fall within the authority of the individual’s Admin Officer.

Since DIVNOTES are considered a “temporary document”, the records in question are not placed on the PERMIS system.  However, DIVNOTES are to be retained for five years after the last administrative action.  If a member is released before the five years are up, the DIVNOTES are to be forwarded to the appropriate Release Section and shall be held for five years from the date of the last administrative action. 

The Divisional System tradition of having personnel records updated and performance assessed every four months has been replaced by the CFPAS feedback every six months. 

Personally, I (and everyone I know) issues PDR feedback sessions every quarter.  Six months is a long time between formal feedback sessions. 

Theres no need for a seperate system to keep track of these things when a part 5 PDR can be produced for these things

Agreed, Section 5 does include what is captured in Divisional Notes, however, when I write Section 5 I am summarizing from pages and pages of divisional notes.  I write quantitative assessments every few days - weekly at most.  So by the time it comes for the quarterly interview, I have 6 or 7 pages of notes to condense into a comprehensive and succinct review of the member’s performance to date.

/rant begins/
What does drive me nuts are supervisors who do not issue a Section 3/4 - they simply write from the div notes and issue Section 5.  UNSAT.  I see this too often - perhaps because we use div notes, I don't know.  Section 3/4 is to be issued a minimum of 24 hours before the interview - the supervisor is supposed to check what the member has identified as having "accomplished" against the div notes - PRIOR to section 5 being written.  Too often this is not done in my experience.  I actually issue section 3/4 at the start of the reporting year and direct my subordinates to keep it up-to-date throughout.
/rant complete/
 
Thank you all for your input, I really need the ref for:

i have looked for a specific quote which i can reference that states something to the effect 'without prior couselling on an issue, a member can not be faulted for a shortcoming in a PER.' I have searched quite throughly many ref's in the QR&O's and other gov't sources, but can not find that specific example. Any help would be much appreciated, so that i can ref it in my memo.

A HUGE thank you for anyone who can dig this up for me... i cant find it .
 
these are my REFs BTW. If there is anything else that may be approperate i would appreciate it!

a. CF Grievance Manual; May 2007
b. CFAO 19-32 Redress of Grievance
c. CFPAS (Canadian Forces Personnel Appraisal System) Appendix
d. DOAD 5019-4 Remedial Measures
e. DAOD 5050-1 Canadian Forces Personnel Records of the Director General 
    Recruiting and Military Careers and the Director Human Resources
    Information Management, and Service Estate Records of the Judge Advocate
    General
 
This isnt much, but its a starting point:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Reports/mmcc/Changes/hrm_e.asp#personnel

CHAPTER 4 — HUMAN RESOURCE MANAGEMENT ISSUES

Key points:

"The Personnel Evaluation Report (PER) is the key document used by promotion boards to determine an individual's merit list standing and thus the possibility of promotion, as well as suitability for further terms of service. Its quality and accuracy are therefore very important."

"The CFPAS DAOD places responsibility for submission of PERs with the member's commanding officer, who must ensure that all required information concerning the performance and potential of the member during the reporting period is incorporated, that all PERs are complete, and that they are submitted properly and on time."


And this article here:

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/Community/MapleLeaf/article_e.asp?id=3078

Understanding the current personnel appraisal system by Capt P. D. Beatty

"The PDR process incorporates two feedback sessions during the reporting period designed to review the member's performance—one at the mid-point of the reporting period, the second at the end of the reporting period, concurrent with the PER interview. While a member should be counselled if, in the opinion of their chain of command, the level of performance or potential falls below acceptable standards, there is no CFPAS requirement to counsel the member if their demonstrated performance and potential remain above the required standard, even if the level of performance is below the previous year’s."
 
pte4life,

did you get the PM I sent you a few minutes ago?

MARS
 
MARS said:
...
I don't know how unique it actually is...perhaps it was a unique system at one time...I don't know if the army/air force use it or not.  Perhaps a "mutiny" is not something that ever occurs in the army/air force, and "technically" (according the Report) we never had a "mutiny" either.  I
...

:warstory:

Going back nearly half a century, the platoon commander's notebook - with information about the circumstances and performance of each NCO and soldier - was maintained at least as well as the platoon commander's weapon and it was inspected just as often.

Confidential Reports (for NCOs, only - the precursors of PERs) had to be substantiated by the platoon commander's notebook. It was also an essential tool for recommending private soldiers for e.g. junior NCO course. I can, personally, vouch for the fact that company commanders went into the CO's semi-annual junior NCO course selection board (Ottawa was not, in any way, involved in really important career decisions like who got to go on that all important course) armed with pages from their platoon commanders' notebooks to support their recommendations. How well we kept those books had a very real, direct and visible impact on the careers of our soldiers.

The rest of your points are well taken.
 
Like i said, I only vaguely remember someone mentioning that, and I may have misunderstood, it was quite a long time ago. pte4life, I hope we were all able to help you. One other thing about the div notes in ref to you question about prior counselling is that it is another tool we use to ensure that members are counselled about shortcomings, that way once we have discussed an issue with the member it is noted in the div notes. Does that help at all.
Feet
 
the notebook fun fact is very interesting. The army has changed a lot from the days of old. And yes, the information incoming is helpful and appreciated. The sources and citations are the most helpful. Ref. my earlier question, i still need some sort of citation. that is for: i need to be councelled before i can be ripped into for something on a PER. As of now that is the primary citation i need, and i will continue looking. But if someone can help me out, that would save me a lot of work. I've already gone over DAOD 5029-4. and while that pertains to what im looking for, it does not explicitly outline what i need to cite.

Thank you all!

If no one thinks its a bad idea, i might edit out all names and dates and the sort, and post the redress memo without any personal information. Im actually quite proud of what i have written, and i am sure that i would get loads of feedback from the community.

Thank you all again.
 
pte4life said:
i need to be councelled before i can be ripped into for something on a PER.

I'm away from work for quite sometime so i cant get the source to quote it here but, having had to deal with that question at work ( for my own fucked up PER) here what the CFPAS guidance says :

You must receive at least 2 PDR throughout the year before you PER. Those consist of the initial one ( Part 1 ) and one more PDR session (Part 5).

That is the minimum you must get. The CFPAS handbook is where this info is located. There is nothing in it that says that you have to have been councelled about it in order to make it in your PER.
 
Now canforgen came out in july 2008 (don't have access to the DIN today) Grievances are to be dealt with at a lower level - DMCARM  no longer considered as Initial Authority as a matter of course.  CO at next higher level will now be considered the IA... so, PERs signed off by the unit CO will be dealt with at Bde level.
 
My question to you is: Do you have any copies of your previous PDRs?

Yes they got lost in the admin world, however you should have a photocopy of every PDR and PER that you've signed.

If so those documents will help you out with your redress.

Regards
 
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