Redress of Grievance – Mega thread [MERGED]

[anonwhocares]

Hello-
today I got a 5b, with contradicting info on it from orders and timmings i was given. It seems to be a troop level power play, angry that i did not wish to go along with his vision of my carreer, I do not wish to get into it much, but my 5b contradicts timmings i was given and against limitations i was given by an MO.

normally i would sign a 5b and let it go ( not that Ive had many, but normally they have their place), this time it seems like it is a steping stone to a later charge for messing up my Lt's master plan.

so my question is, has anyone ever grivenced a part 5b, was it worth it, was their a positive or negative outcome.

Thanks-

 

[Pusser]

What do you mean by a 5b?

 

[MARS]

Sounds like para 5(b) of the CFPAS PDR - areas for development

 

[Journeyman]

Sounds like para 5(b) of the CFPAS PDR - areas for development

Familiar with it, are you?  op:

      ;D

 

[MARS]

;D

 

[Journeyman]

Ya, me too. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Technically yes  you *may* be able to grieve.

BUT...there are lower levels of resolution you could attempt first.  It's called "informal resolution" and should be attempted before you start hammering grievances out (IMO).

Not knowing anything other than you are in a Troop somewhere, I'd suggest talking to your immediate superior, explaining what you are unhappy about, and why and go from there. 

:2c:

 

[TChuki]

Hello all,


I seldom post, but read a lot on this forum. I chose not to create a new topic but to continue with a similar dilemma. I’d like to get an advice or some clarity from those that understand the system better and perhaps its customs, before I do anything that may be “stupid”. In summary I’d like to rationalize the issue that has left me sleepless and distraught. This will be my 3rd PER and last week I found, after politely seeking some indication on how I am doing from my immediate supervisor, that I will not be getting an immediate but ‘high ready” as two other Cpls from out “shift” will. One of whom works in our sections. Furthermore, I was advise that, he – my supervisor- had no say in it and will be writing whatever is dictated to him in due time. I sought some advice and clarity from him as the shift was prepping the files for the mini board (immediates) without members’ brag sheets. – I say this with absolute certainty, as we all work in condensed office environment equivalent of 3 classrooms due to building construction projects. – The point is the process of formulating the files could not and was not discrete.

Here is a brief background: 

- My supervisor and the PO. have no training and very little experience in CFPAS as they are US Navy on the exchange program.

- For this fiscal year there was only 1 PDR issued to me, and several other members under the same CoC (1st quarter). We have all expressed our concerns several times to the WO of the shift (via a different Sgt. who is not our direct CoC), before the holidays seasons, assuring us that there will be some resolution to NO PDRs. issue. - nothing came out of it.

- Last year under the same WO, I was given high ready PER stating that it could have gone either way and that naturally the progress dictates that by next year (this PER season) I ought to be “immediate”.

- I have invested all my will and faith by picking up any and all secondary duties available, completing my job training in minimal time required with an exam score of a 100% and was very involved in the community. On the job for over 12 months.

- I am very passionate about what I do and do enjoy it…and they were very fruitful results with regards to the mission. 

How common is it to not have a PDR in a fiscal year, for a unit that is not on a deployment? Is this a standard practise to internally rank members without their brag sheets and therefore not to account overall performance and impact thereof?
This has left me very bitter and completely demoralised.

My intent is to speak to that immediate supervisor and his Sgt. as soon as I go back to work from my leave. I just fear that it will be upon a conclusion of the unit’s mini board and therefore too late. – Do I have enough to legitimately grieve the outcome, as it stands now.
I never wish to question other members' assessment or PER....but if It comes to that I will. Can "Capping within the unit" be questioned as a  prejudicial and therefore illegitimate process.

Thank you.

 

[PuckChaser]

- Last year under the same WO, I was given high ready PER stating that it could have gone either way and that naturally the progress dictates that by next year (this PER season) I ought to be “immediate”.

Wrong. Last year's PER score doesn't need to be lower than this year's score. If you check the grievance board rulings, you will be denied if that's your only grounds. If you truly feel you've done an immediate-level of performance and shown that potential, start getting your brag sheet together and linking things you did with justification for certain bullets. Also, what someone else got and what you get shouldn't matter. You shouldn't know their scores unless they tell you, hence why PERs are Protected B.

Scores being dictated from higher is always an issue in the CF, everyone here can probably cite multiple examples of scores changing because of a merit board, or someone other than the supervisor thought they shouldn't get that high of a score.

Start getting your ducks in a row now, wait for your PER interview, and ask pointed questions about certain dots. Sign it, and then draft your memo requesting a PER replacement if you still feel you should get scored higher. If its not replaced by the CO, you can go ahead and start the grievance process.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

IIRC, CFPAS states you should get an initial PDR at the beginning of the FY/PER season and a minimum of 1 review before the next PER, obviously with quarterly reviews being the best possible way, but is not required IAW CFPAS.

Being a "high ready" one year doe not guarantee an Immediate the next.  It is possible to go even from Immediate to a Developing (if the performance for that PER year was Developing and the mbr regressed).

My supervisor is also an exchange NCM; he writes PDRs and PERs IAW CFPAS and they are reviewed by his superiors.  I don't think there is an issue, and I don't think there is anything in CFPAS that disallows it.

From a grievance perspective, IMO they are won on policy and its application, not so much "he said/she said" stuff which there seems to be a lot of in your post.

Try reading up on QR & O, Vol 1, Chapter 7 as well as the DGCFGA DIN and/or Internet site, I believe there is info on the DGCFGA site specifically for PER grievances.

Before you go further though, you have to answer the question "what am I grieving/what is the issue and how is the best way to resolve it".  A grievance is not always the best route and lower level/informal resolution should always be attempted.

 

[stokerwes]

No such thing as a high ready, its either ready or immediate. Look at the form, unsatisfactory, developing, ready, and immediate are the only choices. Unless the dots line up your PER it will not reach the monitoring board no matter how good the write up is. Telling someone they have a high ready is just fluff.
If I was submitting a grievance based on what you stated I would grieve the fact that it appears there is a quota  at your unit. This is a blatant circumvention of how the CFPAS is designed to work. I am sure this is not the case at your unit, more than likely there is more to it than your WO will just write what is dictated.
If you decide to file a grievance make sure you exhaust all other avenues first, remember that this is just one PER of many if you plan to stick around, and you don't want to be burning bridges. If you feel you should have scored higher and can substantiate it have at it. But if its just a matter that you think you should just get a higher PER than last year you don't have a leg to stand on. I have seen personnel go from immediate one year to developing the next.
Only one PDR is required annually.
Engage your CoC before jumping to grievance. Perhaps the WO didn't have the time to explain the situation fully. Set a meeting with your supervisor in a neutral environment to see if you can see where you may have fell short. Although this is what the PDR is designed to do sometimes we just fill the forms in because we have to.
Whatever you decide good luck.

 

[PuckChaser]

No such thing as a high ready, its either ready or immediate. Look at the form, unsatisfactory, developing, ready, and immediate are the only choices. Unless the dots line up your PER it will not reach the monitoring board no matter how good the write up is. Telling someone they have a high ready is just fluff.

Its a colloquialism. 3 Outstanding and 3 AA is a "high ready". Incredibly different in scores than a 3 AA and 3 Normal "low ready". There's a huge spectrum difference in a Ready PER recommendation, moreso than an Immediate and it uses those terms help to clarify it. Its also a red herring to his issues with the PER.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Its a colloquialism. 3 Outstanding and 3 AA is a "high ready". Incredibly different in scores than a 3 AA and 3 Normal "low ready". There's a huge spectrum difference in a Ready PER recommendation, moreso than an Immediate and it uses those terms help to clarify it. Its also a red herring to his issues with the PER.

3 AA and 3 N = Developing... Not a ready...

 

[PuckChaser]

3 AA and 3 N = Developing... Not a ready...

Gotcha, don't have CFPAS at home to work the math out. That, and I've been lucky not have to write many developing PERs.  :nod:

 

[Nfld Sapper]

Gotcha, don't have CFPAS at home to work the math out. That, and I've been lucky not have to write many developing PERs.  :nod:

Np 

 

[stokerwes]

Its a colloquialism. 3 Outstanding and 3 AA is a "high ready". Incredibly different in scores than a 3 AA and 3 Normal "low ready". There's a huge spectrum difference in a Ready PER recommendation, moreso than an Immediate and it uses those terms help to clarify it. Its also a red herring to his issues with the PER.

Agreed, but to a young Cpl being told your a high ready without understanding how the system really works can seem a  bit misleading.  That being said CFPAS is available for everyone to read on almost all DWAN machines. I would think the "younger" generation should have little difficulty finding the handbook to read prior to filing a grievance. My opinion is that honestly written evaluations tend to place the member on the lower side of the merit list as the scores are highly inflated, who really can substantiate a entirely right justified PER?

 

[Halifax Tar]

Agreed, but to a young Cpl being told your a high ready without understanding how the system really works can seem a  bit misleading.  That being said CFPAS is available for everyone to read on almost all DWAN machines. I would think the "younger" generation should have little difficulty finding the handbook to read prior to filing a grievance. My opinion is that honestly written evaluations tend to place the member on the lower side of the merit list as the scores are highly inflated, who really can substantiate a entirely right justified PER?

Oh buddy your opening up another whole can of worms!  WRT fully right dressed PERs.

I actually read one that had an AWOL charge in it.  And the PER was fully right dressed.  Didn't believe it could happen then I saw it!

 

[TChuki]

Thanks for all your replies. It wouldn’t be appropriate for me to get into a detailed story about this issue so I won’t and that wasn’t the intent. I wanted to ‘test’ the waters with some mixed experience from you readers. Don’t get me wrong I don’t think that anyone has any right to legitimately get into he said she said frivolous debates and fights not only is it immature but would ultimately be detrimental.

Nor should anyone even worse get into openly compering others’ scores.  I guess the lesson learned is that what you do matters at times but image perceived by those that have “earned- privileges” is paramount, especially if you are fortunate to have a good backing, engaging supervisors that take resource, human resource development seriously.

;D that's my venting...for this reporting period.
When there is no feedback and support, the job losses it's allure.The job is not as interesting, not anymore. It's become a theater of bragging. This is where one gets in a pattern of complete detaching oneself and just doing it for the good old "20-20". The opportunities, although increasingly more limited now days are still great. But it isn’t that, what drives me anymore. It’s the opportunity to get it right one day to those coming up behind me.

 

[opcougar]

Good afternoon All,

Hope you are all having a nice Easter break? My was derailed just before the long weekend, and this has to be my worst holiday period ever. Here is my story......

I am a Capt yr 2.....I was presented with my PER on Thurs to sign by my supervisor who was newly promoted and came into the position last APS. Prior to this supervisor, I had a different supervisor who I disclosed my personal situation (Divorce) to when I got posted in back in 2012. I felt the need to let him know and also assured him that a social worker gave me the all clear based on my meetings, that I seem to be focused and handling everything well. I have 20 subordinates by the way...2 were promoted last APS, 2 are being promoted this time around. We even received a commendation for our work.

My 2013 PER under PF, had me at ES for the following: supervising, eval and developing subs, leading change and working with others. The same applied to ethics and value, reliability, accountability and resource management. The rest was a mixture of Mastered and ES

Now fast forward the current supervisor....I also disclosed to him my personal situation for his SA, and occasionally briefed him verbally on how the Troop is doing. He seems to have made assumptions based on my personal situation and my brief brag sheet, to write my PER. He mentioned that he didn't have much to go by when he put me at (Skilled) for the following for PF: supervising, eval and developing subs, leading change and working with others.

Under ethics and values & Dedication.....he had me at ES down from Mastered previously.

I feel like my clock of life had just been turned back 2yrs, and there is no way this can be good for my progression. I am also dealing with someone who is not an Anglophone. My divorce has nothing to do with my work, and for him to comment that because of the divorce, it takes time to get over such a thing, is just wrong. I mentioned to him and showed him my last PER, and made it known that I don't think my previous experience dealing with the same job all of a sudden disappeared, to which he replied he will see what he can do but isn't promising anything. He also blamed me for not presenting a loaded 'brag sheet'. If I knew the brag sheet was going to be used as the Gospel, am sure I could have written 10 pages of BS

So here is my question for the senior folks here i.e. people with more time in that I have.....How do I go about grieving this without rocking the boat? I spent part of yesterday drafting up the 'Notice of Intent' (NOI), and will be following up with the Grievance process docs

Your suggestions and advice welcome.

Cheers

 

[SeaKingTacco]

The first thing to remember is that your PER score from a previous year bears no relationship to your current year.

The second thing to remember is that the PER system underwent a significant change this year that (IMHO), led to some score deflation.

If you are unhappy with your PER, the first step is to attempt informal resolution at the unit level.  In a memo to your boss, explain why your score is too low (tying concrete examples to the CFPAS word pictures). Failing that  you have option of grieving within 6 months of the date you signed your PER.