Recruits of the last half decade: Fatter, dumber and less motivated than before.

[caocao]

Or less just give them as many retest as required to ensure that every complete the course :facepalm:

 

[Pusser]

One of the reasons we stopped fitness testing before enrolment was because too many folks were failing and we weren't meeting recruiting targets.  At least the way we're doing it now gives a chance to run the fat off of them in BMQ.  In my view, a bigger problem is that we do run the crap out of people on BMQ/BMOQ and then we STOP!  That makes no sense at all to me.  Fitness training should be an everyday, career long part of CF membership.  If we maintained a culture of fitness from Day 1, then we wouldn't need fitness testing at all.

 

[Monsoon]

Or less just give them as many retest as required to ensure that every complete the course :facepalm:

The CF has done a bad job of quantifying the extent to which its training (especially basic training) is not just a way to provide skill instruction, but also about stress inoculation and assessing candidates' abilities to quickly assimilate information and skills while under a degree of pressure. If it takes someone three cracks to pass a course for other than exceptional reasons, you've failed to achieve a key objective of the training. I've never seen any official policy document or course QSP that mentioned these as training deliverables, but anyone who's gone through basic training recognizes that these are a big part of what that training used to be intended to provide.

All that to say that I suspect that this blind spot in the worthwhile push to establish exactly why we provide the training we do is the biggest culprit in lowering in-service standards, rather than in recruitment standards themselves.

 

[Grimey]

Prior to retirement, I spent two years as Mar Eng senior instructor at CFFSE.  The QL5 failure rate was abysmal, usually in excess of 50%.  I lost track of how many TRBs I sat.

My peers and I couldn't wrap our heads around how a student from 20 yrs ago with less education (with Gr 10 being the norm, and which still is the current minimal entry requirement) had better success in passing a course which was, in the main, harder than it is now.  Also, guys had between 8-10 yrs in before QL5 back then as opposed to the 4-5 currently.

During TRBs I'd leaf through their PERs file starting a the back to locate their HS transcripts.  Most of us around the table had no idea what we where looking at as the course codes being next to impossible to decipher.  Finding something with Math or Physics in the title was like looking for the proverbial needle.

This correlates with which most posters have either said or alluded too:  The dumbing down of national secondary education Has been happening for years. 

 

[Monsoon]

Also, guys had between 8-10 yrs in before QL5 back then as opposed to the 4-5 currently.

You don't think that that's the reason guys are struggling with the course more now? I would have thought platform exposure would be considered a big driver of success on a Journeyman course - especially with ships sailing fewer days now than in the past.

 

[zulu95]

IMO part of the problem is the lack of knowledge in young people about how to go about joining the CAF. Since a young age I have been involved in Cadets and dealt with reservists and recruiters on a fairly regular basis but this past year as my friends and I began discussing our plans for after high school I was astounded by the number of them who had no idea that there was even a recruiting center in town much less that the forces had their own recruiting website.
I believe that this lack of publicity by the forces has let many a potentially successful candidate slip past simply because they didn't know how to go about chasing their dream so they instead found another interest leaving room for the fatter recruits motivated by Hollywood ideals to take their place.

 

[ballz]

IMO part of the problem is the lack of knowledge in young people about how to go about joining the CAF. Since a young age I have been involved in Cadets and dealt with reservists and recruiters on a fairly regular basis but this past year as my friends and I began discussing our plans for after high school I was astounded by the number of them who had no idea that there was even a recruiting center in town much less that the forces had their own recruiting website.
I believe that this lack of publicity by the forces has let many a potentially successful candidate slip past simply because they didn't know how to go about chasing their dream so they instead found another interest leaving room for the fatter recruits motivated by Hollywood ideals to take their place.

While a better marketing campaign on TV / movies / during sporting events / etc would certainly attract more attention and bring in a larger talent pool to choose from, I don't buy for a second that its hard for anybody to join or figure out how to join.

I had no idea about the CAF... I was sitting there, like you are now, wondering what I was going to do after high school. I Googled "Canadian Forces" and it brought me to a website.... and then I called the recruiters. It didn't take very much initiative to get the ball rolling, and that's coming from someone who wasn't "chasing a dream" by any stretch...

 

[JorgSlice]

While a better marketing campaign on TV / movies / during sporting events / etc would certainly attract more attention and bring in a larger talent pool to choose from, I don't buy for a second that its hard for anybody to join or figure out how to join.

I had no idea about the CAF... I was sitting there, like you are now, wondering what I was going to do after high school. I Googled "Canadian Forces" and it brought me to a website.... and then I called the recruiters. It didn't take very much initiative to get the ball rolling, and that's coming from someone who wasn't "chasing a dream" by any stretch...

I do wish to see more media exposure for the CF. Despite budget cuts, there should be a steady stream of TV and Radio commericials, ads in newspapers, that tell our beautiful and vast nation about who we are, what we do, and that we DO want the best and the brightest.

 

[ballz]

I do wish to see more media exposure for the CF. Despite budget cuts, there should be a steady stream of TV and Radio commericials, ads in newspapers, that tell our beautiful and vast nation about who we are, what we do, and that we DO want the best and the brightest.

No arguments here. The USMC has got it figured out... Piggy-backing off stuff like the UFC, NFL Football, etc...

 

[JorgSlice]

No arguments here. The USMC has got it figured out... Piggy-backing off stuff like the UFC, NFL Football, etc...

When I work for Alberta Health Services, throwing open the Calgary SUN and showing people " this is what we do " REF: flood assistance makes me giddy and always seems to get the hot young nurses wrapped around my finger  ;D

 

[Eaglelord17]

No arguments here. The USMC has got it figured out... Piggy-backing off stuff like the UFC, NFL Football, etc...

Like there commercial with the dragon?

 

[Grimey]

You don't think that that's the reason guys are struggling with the course more now? I would have thought platform exposure would be considered a big driver of success on a Journeyman course - especially with ships sailing fewer days now than in the past.

Not at all.  Let's play devils advocate and say they have a well rounded academic (math, hard science) last year in high school.  Despite the Mar Eng minimum entry requirement being Gr 10 (with at least one credit being math) the majority have Gr 12, or at least what passes for it nowadays.  The delta for these guys (and occasional gal) between final yr HS and their journeyman course is as short as its ever been.  You'd think they'd have the academics weighed off in that you'd think it be'd fresh in their minds.  If it is, it doesn't manifest itself on course.  It reminds me of Lucy on Peanuts having issues with the "new math".

TBH, there is also a lack of personal drive.  The trade is so short of qualified junior technicians (and the perennial shortage of Cert 3s that seems to have existed since the first CPF floated up or came off of the slip) that course flunkies, providing they've shown the minimal effort, know they'll have a second chance 6-12 months later.  The Mar Eng community as a whole does encourage pre course academic prep and upgrading, albeit half-heartedly.

Platform exposure in no ways prepares students for QL5 and the subjects that claims the most victims:  Math and Machine shop/hand skills.

QL3 isn't much better.  Math was reintroduced a few yrs back, the aim being to stymy the failure rate a handful of yrs down the road when they come back from QL5.  For what is essentially a Gr 8/9 refresher, so-called high school grads couldn't divide fractions or where baffled when trying to solve one unknown in basic equations.

I totally agree with Army Vern.  A 1985 vintage HS grad diploma is todays BA, or BSc for that matter.

 

[armyvern]

The problem right now is that there is zero incentive to be smarter, more fit and motivated.
We're not fighting for ranks anymore and you're just pushed up just because they need the position filled.
Also, you can be a lazy slob that goes and hides all day and you would get paid the same as someone who works their butt off all day and who wants to be there.

If the military only promoted you for being fit, smart and motivated then you would see a big improvement within the CF.

Nah, if supervisors utilized ICs, RWs and C&Ps IAW already existing policy for the deadwood that you speak of we'd see a big improvement.  If some lazy slob is hiding all day and getting away with it, that's a leadership problem.

 

[Edward Campbell]

This report, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from the Ottawa Citizen, is loosely related to this topic in that it illustrates the difficulties the CF faces in recruiting and selecting the people it really wants:

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/2013-budget/Military+reduce+unattainable+targets+recruitment+women/8803831/story.html

Military to reduce ‘unattainable’ targets for the recruitment of women, visible minorities

BY LEE BERTHIAUME, POSTMEDIA NEWS

AUGUST 18, 2013

OTTAWA — Military officials are preparing to scale back targets related to the number of women and visible minorities in uniform because they say the current goals are “unattainable,” according to a defence department audit.

This is despite the military having made some progress in increasing the proportion of both within its rank and file in recent years.

At the same time, auditors have warned that the decision to close 12 military recruiting centres across the country to save money will hurt reserve units as well as aboriginal recruitment, which has been on the increase.

Despite an end to combat operations in Afghanistan and deep budget cuts, officials say the military needs more than 4,000 new recruits each year to offset attrition and keep 68,000 full-time troops in uniform.

As part of that, the Canadian Forces, like all federal government departments and agencies, is required by law to work towards increasing the number of women, visible minorities, aboriginals and people with disabilities within its workforce.

While the idea is to promote equal opportunity, the military has also taken to seeing this as part of its effort to better reflect Canada’s population and society.

As part of this, a complex calculation has been used to establish targets for diversifying the Canadian Forces, while dozens of initiatives have been launched to help meet these goals.

The targets were last updated in 2010 and aimed to have 25.1 per cent of the military represented by women, 11.8 per cent by visible minorities, and 3.4 per cent by Aboriginal Peoples.

Yet in an audit conducted last year and only recently made public, defence officials complained the revised goal for women “is unattainable without the imposition of significant measures.”

They added  the new goal was “unrealistically high” because of the “flawed” calculation used to establish the target.

While auditors found the percentage of new recruits enrolled in basic training each year who were women has fallen from 15.58 per cent to 12.67 per cent between 2008 and 2011, women’s overall representation in the military grew from 13.59 per cent to 13.68 per cent.

Progress on increasing the representation of visible minorities also “falls well short,” defence officials reported, even though the number has increased steadily from 2.83 per cent in 2008 to 3.86 per cent in 2011.

The defence officials complained that the targets were “imposed” on the Canadian Forces, and though new initiatives to diversify the military’s representation are in development, so too are efforts to develop “more realistic” goals.

Officials said they were hoping to establish “revised” goals for women and visible minority representation by March 2017.

Royal Military College professor Christian Leuprecht, who specializes in diversity within the Canadian military, was aghast that defence officials were moving to slash the targets for women and visible minorities.

He said doing so would create a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy by reducing the pressure to recruit more of each, which he felt was necessary if the military wants to ensure it represents Canada’s changing culture and population.

“This is not just spreadsheets of multiculturalism and you fill in the numbers and hope to meet the targets,” he said.

Adding more women and visible minorities will be increasingly essential if the military is to remain at its current strength, Leuprecht added, given that its “traditional” recruiting pool – young, white men from rural communities – is shrinking.

Officials justified their decision to reduce the goals by noting that the representation of women and visible minorities in the Canadian Forces is about the same as in the Australian military and higher than in the British military, though it lags the United States.

Canada has been a leader when it comes to employment equity in its military, Leuprecht confirmed, but he said that is a reason to keep pushing the issue and not going the other way.

“So it speaks to what extent is the CF prepared to work at changing its institutional nature and its recruiting culture to align it with the legal, political and social expectations of Canada, the Canadian government and Canadians.”

Meanwhile, auditors also raised concerns that the decision to close 30 per cent of the military’s recruiting centres and reduce the number of recruiting staff by 25 per cent will hurt reserve units as well as the recruitment of aboriginals.

The moves were ordered as a result of declining demand for new troops with the end of the combat mission in Afghanistan as well as efforts to slash more than $2 billion from the defence department budget.

The military is hoping online recruiting will make up the slack, but auditors concluded the closures and recruiting staff reductions will have a significant effect” on the processing of new reservists.

“Furthermore, there will likely be an adverse impact on (employment equity) recruiting, particularly for aboriginals, since the majority of the closed centres serviced outlying regions where these candidates reside,” auditors wrote.

The number of aboriginals in the Canadian Forces has grown steadily from 1.96 per cent in 2008 to 2.16 per cent 2011, and unlike with targets for women and visible minorities, defence officials had considered the target for aboriginals “achievable.”

The auditors were also skeptical of the military’s plan to move recruiting online, concluding that “progress will be highly dependent on personnel resources and IT support, both of which are undergoing significant reductions.”

lberthiaume(at)postmedia.com

Twitter:/leeberthiaume

© Copyright (c) Postmedia News

Some people of a certain age will remember a story about the late BGen Don Holmes and a famous message about "fat, ugly women," but that's a different story ...

The fact is that some of the problems that afflict many DND/CF programmes are not "self inflicted wounds" at all. They are "wounds" all right, but they are inflicted by the political/policy centre for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the mandate of DND.

 

[Cbbmtt]

I have never been in a union and I make as much as a corporal does today with only a grade 12 education. However, because it's a sales position there is always a sense of uncertainty for tomorrows pay check. The pension isn't very good with my current company and I don't go home at the end of the day with any pride. I didn't

If we didn't have recruiters going to trade shows and schools back in 2000 I would of never even thought about the forces. Now it's all I want to do or ever wanted to do.

I'm a little over weight, but I can run and do twice the prerequisites for fitness qualification. Are there a lot of people going to BMQ that can't do 19 push ups???

 

[MikeL]

Are there a lot of people going to BMQ that can't do 19 push ups???

There are some who go away to BMQ who are not physically ready for it, and have failed the PT test.  Some are kept in, and if they improve/pass the test they join another course.. if they didn't mean the bare minimum to be retained, or are unable to o pass the fitness test after their time in Warrior Platoon they are released from the Canadian Forces.  There are a few posts on the forum from people that were on Warrior Platoon, and some who(or their parents) were released due to not meeting the standard.

 

[Kat Stevens]

The problem with a lot of people is that they may be able to crack off 75 push ups, but only 15 count due to form and technique.  Same for sit ups.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The problem with a lot of people is that they may be able to crack off 75 push ups, but only 15 count due to form and technique.  Same for sit ups.

IMO I would rather fight along side someone who can do 75 push ups that PSP wrinkles their nose at than someone who can manage 15 ones, if that makes sense.

The CAF does have a lack of "good"  applicants.  One of the issues (which I alluded to earlier), is the "no one left behind" mindset has worked it's way into CFRG.  It was EXTREMELY difficult (and frustrating), to convince my supervisors to junk bad applicants (and for sake of clarity I am talking about new applicants, not people looking to rejoin with unfavourable release categories that's a whole different issue).  Applications that a McDonald's manager would pass on were/are being pushed through the system,

I think this is a great example of what is wrong with our recruiting.  Our system is bogged down because of this.

 

[DAA]

Nah, if supervisors utilized ICs, RWs and C&Ps IAW already existing policy for the deadwood that you speak of we'd see a big improvement.  If some lazy slob is hiding all day and getting away with it, that's a leadership problem.

Remedial measures may be warranted in some cases but what we are missing, is supervisors rotating people in and out of positions to make them more efficient, productive and knowledgeable of their occupation.  Far too often I have seen sub-performers shuffled from one menial task to another, intentionally overlooked for more progressive/knowledge enhancing jobs and never given the opportunity to do something more challenging, with the core intent of broadening their occupational knowledge to make them better.

Why would I want to try and be "better" when I am only going to be assigned to the same type of task, over and over again?

 

[Kat Stevens]

  *snip
IMO I would rather fight along side someone who can do 75 push ups that PSP wrinkles their nose at than someone who can manage 15 ones, if that makes sense.  snip*

Agree fully, my point was that they're more hung up on form than function.  NOBODY does perfect push ups after about the 9th "drop and give me 50" of the day.