RCAF aircrew shortage

[blacktriangle]

I'd be curious, what's the highest rank that someone from the AES Op DE trial has achieved so far? I know they changed the career progression model when the DE trial started, but some of these guys have to be MCpl by now? How are they doing?

 

[Eagle_Eye_View]

Yes they are MCpls and even Sgts by now. IMO they are young, keen, and eager to change the trade for the better.

 

[Sub_Guy]

I'd be curious, what's the highest rank that someone from the AES Op DE trial has achieved so far? I know they changed the career progression model when the DE trial started, but some of these guys have to be MCpl by now? How are they doing?

They are doing pretty good, however I’ve noticed that many lack leadership skills.  Quite a few of them have flown through the ranks rather quickly (attrition) and haven’t had enough time/experience to properly develop.

That being said I feel every AES Op should be promoted to Cpl after MOAT/OTU.  This would go a long way to improving morale for the young kids.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

True, but for the long term health and staying power of your trade, having some DEAs around are an important factor in lowering the overall average age of your trade. We also break them, physically, less frequently.

Very much so.  Data/knowledge from the DE trial kickoff until about a year and a half ago resulted in a change in the intake from high % of DE and less % of OTs, to a target of 65% OTs.  Granted, that was what the 4 Horsemen said at a townhall in the spring of '17.

There needs to be a balance, and I think we're closer to the right balance with the increase in OT %'s. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yes they are MCpls and even Sgts by now. IMO they are young, keen, and eager to change the trade for the better.

Where the real weakness shows;  their knowledge and ability at the Sqn's as Leads.  They just don't have the experience and knowledge background...less ability to do the straight NCO function on a crew.  And that is a significant piece of the Lead's job.  L/AES Op has many pieces in that pie.  They also demonstrated a significant gap in knowledge/skill/ability on crew as A cats, and it was painful in some cases.

Higher % of OTs should mitigate this issue, as well as the trg revamp...hopefully this will result in a Lead course/qual in the end.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

EITS,

To play Devil's Advocate- I see that as less the fault of the DEA Sgt and more of the Sqn.

Where was his/her developmental opportunities and mentoring.

The RCAF has been addicted to AESOps largely showing up with the NCO piece weighed off and has never made the cultural/institutional shift necessary to deliberately develop those skills.

It is a constant source of frustation of mine that the AESOp occupation receives almost no Chain of Command oversight/intervention.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

EITS,

To play Devil's Advocate- I see that as less the fault of the DEA Sgt and more of the Sqn.

Partially the Sqn, but I think it more lies with the trade itself;  no adjustment in training was made for the DEs who would progress up the ranks, it was business as usual and now we are seeing the deficiencies.  I raised the issue at the NASO Partial QSWB in spring of 2017, and the FIC ground school was added as part of the OJTP.  But...they aren't even tested on the material and don't get the MITE code or anything because they do not finish the complete AIMB qual.  ???  However, there are opportunities now to revisit, restructure and improve and change will be happening.  We can't continue to do business as usually.  402 needs more instructors, 404 and 406 (I'm assuming...) are short-handed and so are the operational Sqns.  We're holding on, but not much more from my view. 

Where was his/her developmental opportunities and mentoring

They do get them, but for the DEs it is without the benefit of formal training like PLQ before they begin taking on Jr NCO roles.  Of  NASO MCpl's right now on our crews, all of them are A/L.  This is a pan-CAF issue IMO so not one the trade can solve.  I believe we need to re-align and OJTP, pull the stuff out that should be included in a DP3B/6A course and not "expect" people to be able to succeed as MCpls/Sgts in the trade.

Mentoring - A Cats are mentored by their Leads, Leads are mentored by Stds & Trg and AES Op Leader oversees all.  At this time, though, out of 4 of us who are AES OP Stds & Trg (we have 1 Stds O and 1 Trg O for both ASO and NASO), 3 of us are also double-hatted as Leads.  The demands of both roles take away from the time to do the individual ones with the right time and focus.  This situation is, hopefully, temporary and won't exist by APS (for the NASO piece).  Because we aren't dedicated in the crew rooms as Leads, the mentoring on the crew level falls to the MCpls - who are all A/L at this time.

The RCAF has been addicted to AESOps largely showing up with the NCO piece weighed off and has never made the cultural/institutional shift necessary to deliberately develop those skills.

100% agree.  I can only speak for the LRP side, but I am confident our SCWO will make the best decisions to realign how we do business.  Everything is being looked at; the MWOs and CWOs want to hear from the Snr NCO/WO levels on what we think.  It's refreshing, and I'm thankful to have been able to add my  :2c: on my area. 

It is a constant source of frustation of mine that the AESOp occupation receives almost no Chain of Command oversight/intervention.

It is now, at very high levels.  The trade has been given some marching orders.  :nod:  From what I've seen so far, for LRP I think 402 trg is lined up, 404 is in the process AFAIK...the OJTP needs to change, and I think we need to develop a DP3/6A course and revisit our current Category system.  I think 402 and 404 need to be priority for MCpl/Sgt positions...if we don't increase the #s only they can produce for LRP, we will never flush out the crews.  Mitigate this by reducing the op tempo of 405 and 407 temporarily.  This is a high level decision, but is the only way forward I can see. 

Don't get me wrong, I know DEs I went thru the 'Peg with who are at 402, 404, etc and are doing very well.  I also know I have a B Cat Cpl who used to be a Inf MCpl with tons of experience who could mentor them on NCO skills - simply because of his decade + of experience.  It's not the fault of the DE NCOs, by any means...I just look at it from a 'what do we need from my view of the world', and a higher intake of OTs for the near future has a change of mitigating situations like are happening now, where Stds & Trg are also filling 75% of the Lead jobs.

Lastly, I hate to complain too much because I know the NASO situation is far better than the ASO one.  There are ideas that have a huge chance of solving many issues LRP faces now, eg - with the 402 trg now including ASO type stuff, do we need to produce a LRP ASO B and NASO B cat...why not just a LRP Jnr Operator?  Realign our Category system more like the RAAF one (which I hope we do). 

 

[Sub_Guy]

I know there are some discussions on how to make things work, and I’ll be honest, the most recent idea I’ve heard is going to put the final nail in the AESOp coffin.  Someone, somewhere thinks all AESOps should be trained on everything.  This speaks volumes about how clueless the leadership is in the trade.  There are only a handful of Acoustic trained AESOps in the fleet, and I would bet if you asked SET for his opinion you’d get the same answer.  I find our leaders have undervalued what an LRP ASO has to know, I’ve heard the “one sensor” comment one too many times.  I’m certain our MH brothers on the VDQ are realizing how challenging tracking can be and are realizing it’s not just another sensor.

Trying to man 402 to 100% has nearly killed us, I can’t speak for 406, but I’ve been feeling the burn for years at 404.  As I’ve mentioned before I laugh when I hear about manning issues at 402.  I’ve really enjoyed working my ass off to make things work, and I’ve been constantly asked to do more with less.  I get it, we all are doing more with less, but when a CWO stands in a room and tells me 402 is the priority I damn near have to be strapped to my seat.

If anything 402 could stand to lose a few instructors.  The training at 402 needs to be adjusted anyway.  When someone gets posted to 404 they are given a FIC and they are off to the races (assuming it’s the same at 406).  But, I’ve heard that when you get posted to 402 it takes a lot longer than a 2 week FIC before they can instruct.  If this the case, it’s inefficient.

As I’ve mentioned it’s been one bad decision after another and now I’m supposed to believe that the next one will be great?  We need someone to step in and tell us what to do, because clearly we can’t do it ourselves.

 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The idea only makes sense if you consider how the RAAF does it.  Everyone comes off MOAT as a C Cat...and all they do is RADAR, EO and Ord basically, for the first year.  After that, some of them 'upgrade' and go on to specialize in Acoustics or ESM...and become B Cats.  A Cat would be their Stds & Trg types.  Something like that.

Now for us;  coming out of Wpg, they have 3 weeks I think?  of MVASP, plus they are doing ESM, RADAR, and MAD (I think).  Make MOAT into 2 parts, 1 wet and 1 dry.  They come out "LRP Jnr Op" and can operate to the required PLs (TBD) and go on "OJTP".  They split time on both wet and dry, and are then selected based on abilities, proficiencies, & preference to either a Acoustic Senior Operator or an ESM Senior Operator (names are just mine).  Introduce a DP3 course that covers the tactics and leadership stuff....this will allow us to streamline the OJTP to get people into the Senior Operator (aka A Cat) seats...

I was at the first WG meeting;  SET ASO and GZ were both present, and this was brought up and neither said "no it won't work".  :dunno:

I was sitting next to GZ and, knowing the life he's suffered thru the last 2 years, I thought if anyone he'd be the one to say "this won't work" but...that wasn't the case. 

I know your pain, seriously...you know what things have been like for us across the parking lot; it's been awhile since I slept in my own bed and it will be awhile yet before I do again.  Been like that for 4 years now.  But...for me to get what more of what I need, and GZ needs...we need more baby operators from you and the other side of the pit.  For you guys to get more people to us, you need to get more people from 402.  MH also needs more people...which puts more demand on 402 to crank people out.  If 404 and 406 need people...where is the only place they can come from?  the line sqn's.  And we're hurting.  So, for me, when I think thru this, the one thing that needs to happen is the one that will end up fucking me over again next APS...bleeding some of our A Cats out to the TEs.  That will negatively affect me directly again this APS...but, honestly, I don't see a way around it...if you don't get more instructors, you can give us more B cats. 

What is a better option IMO?

I'll give my  :2c: as a LRP "dry sensor" type. 

2.  Introduce a Selection process similar to the way SAR Techs do it, but for AES OP.  Aptitudes, spatial ability, multi-tasking, have a Selection Week that all applicants go to, pick the best of the applicants.  There was a trial at a mini-ACS but it was only 1/2 day.  Selection will let you assess people on quantified criteria that is the same for all, and might expose some people to aspects of what we really do.  Some of those people might think "oh this isn't what I thought it was".  Either way, you have the best shot at getting the best people into the training system.  This Selection will also help determine, if done right, which people have aptitudes/abilities in the things MH does, Acoustics, EW aspects, etc.  Right now, the way we select and employ Junior AES Ops for LRP or MH isn't necessarily done based on aptitudes, etc.

3.  Training - streamline it from the Basic Course to the LRP and/or MH operational training. 

5.  Growth and retention.  We need to grow numbers, but we also need to keep the people we've already invested training into.  Some of that will come with reduced op tempo for key people (top category, serviceable flyers), some will come if we select/employ people based on a balance of their abilities and desires.  I also know of a few people who've released because they wanted to fly and got promoted out of those positions. 

My last point - if the power was given to me, I'd shut down the trade training in Wpg, implement the Selection phase, move the 402 instructor positions to 404 and 406 Sqns and would revamp training to a Basic MH AES OP and Basic LRP AES Op stream.  I think that would be the most efficient way to conduct training and produce the #s we need.  Because of how short we are, ANY training not required is too much right now.

402 isn't going away, there is no viable Selection Phase (its done unofficially...)…the only fix I see that can be done in short time...reduce operational to beef up the TEs.  "go slow now so you can go fast later"

That could mean another year of ass-pain for me trying to work for the AFC and STFC (TC)...but I don't know what else would give the TEs MCpl/Sgts...and I've had my fill of years of ass-pain from IMPACT.  ullhair:

 

[TCM621]

Imo cutting the excess of secondary duties and the ever increasing amount of dog and pony show tasking would be a good start.

Soldiers have been complaining about that for centuries and it never stopped people joining. We have cut way, way down on the parades and such in the last 20 years. One could even argue a correlation between declining prevalence of traditional military ceremonies and general "spit and polish" and declining enrollment/retention.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

The very, very last thing my Sqn needs right now is anything that involved parades, polish and marching.  It would do nothing to increase anything that needs to be improved, and do lots to frustrate and lower the morale of already a couple of dozen very busy people. 

 

[dimsum]

Soldiers have been complaining about that for centuries and it never stopped people joining. We have cut way, way down on the parades and such in the last 20 years. One could even argue a correlation between declining prevalence of traditional military ceremonies and general "spit and polish" and declining enrollment/retention.

That *may* be true if folks were just sitting around twiddling their thumbs.  EITS will attest to this but there are folks I haven't seen in months because barely any of us are around the unit or if we are, we're doing day-flights instead of away trips.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Yup, the ever-revolving door...

 

[daftandbarmy]

Supply and demand..... welcome to the seller's market for aircrew


Canada faces severe shortage of pilots and aircraft workers

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/canada-faces-severe-shortage-of-pilots-and-aircraft-workers

 

[Quirky]

Perfect timing, when my IE25 expires in less than ten years I can apply at a maintenance organization that pays just as well, but more importantly, flies modern aircraft. Nothing like training our people to fly/maintain sometimes half a century old aircraft. Technology and modernization will quickly leave the RCAF behind.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Nothing like training our people to fly/maintain sometimes half a century old aircraft. Technology and modernization will has quickly leave left the RCAF behind.

:nod:

 

[MilEME09]

Recently the CBC posted an article, apparently this shortage is not just a RCAF issue, the civilian industry will be facing a shortage of over 7500 pilots, aircrew and mechanics within 25 years at current recruiting/attrition rates. The question I then wonder is it maybe that schools like SAIT should do more to encourage people to take programs like aircraft mechanics? maybe subsidies for students? tax incentives? If i had the money I can say I'd probably consider changing careers into being an aircraft mechanic.

 

[blacktriangle]

Recently the CBC posted an article, apparently this shortage is not just a RCAF issue, the civilian industry will be facing a shortage of over 7500 pilots, aircrew and mechanics within 25 years at current recruiting/attrition rates. The question I then wonder is it maybe that schools like SAIT should do more to encourage people to take programs like aircraft mechanics? maybe subsidies for students? tax incentives? If i had the money I can say I'd probably consider changing careers into being an aircraft mechanic.

Why not become an AVN tech in the RegF then?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Why not become an AVN tech in the RegF then?

I know a guy who is a helicopter tech in Vancouver and has been doing it for 20 years. They tried to recruit him a few years ago and he replied something like 'I'm getting twice the pay and home every night.... nope.'

 

[blacktriangle]

I know a guy who is a helicopter tech in Vancouver and has been doing it for 20 years. They tried to recruit him a few years ago and he replied something like 'I'm getting twice the pay and home every night.... nope.'

Trust me, I get it. However, he has 20 years experience.

Mbr mentioned funds were an issue and wanted some kind of tax incentive. An Avn tech Cpl will make 70k + quick enough, not amazing but better than a kick in the nuts...