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Professional Engineer

The rings these days are made either out of stainless steel or iron, depending on your preference (this was the case, at least, when I received my iron ring at the University of Toronto). They were never, however, made from the steel of a bridge in Quebec, despite the legend. The bridge that collapsed in Quebec was made of steel, not strictly iron, and therefore it would have been foolish to call it an "iron ring" if the rings had in fact been fabricated of steel.

The language of the ceremony, while perhaps dated, nevertheless communicates the same principles as it did in 1925. Responsibility, integrity, and duty should be the trademarks of any engineer. The ceremony itself was quite an event for me and I must admit that this is the first time that I have seen details regarding the ceremony discussed so candidly.

That being said, thank goodness for the signing bonus. ;)
 
Hi Clasper- I thought it was odd being allowed to watch as well- each student being ‘ringed‘ was allowed to bring 3 guests. The organizers stipulated ‘business attire‘- of course there were a few people who came in jeans- I thought, how disrespectful. Add to that the picture-takers, and I think the ceremony would have been better- there were too many distractions going on. An exclusive ceremony would be a good idea, I think.

The obligated engineers and ringers sat kitty-corner to the body of students, while families were up in the bleachers.

Wow, to be ringed by your grandfather- now that is special.
 
I think they allowed non-engineer guests to come within the past few years. I had my wife, and sister in law (with my brother who is an engineer) there, as well. My brother ringed me. dropped it first... but oh well.. lol

and yes, hayleylisa.. a sharpshooter would have been convenient..
:D
 
Yeah, relatively recently they started letting guests come from what we were told. I‘m guessing its to reduce the rumours of it being some sort of secret-society or cult, but I‘m not sure.

As for speaking candidly about the ceremony, from what I remember of the event, they said during the thing that you were allowed to do so, so long as you never spoke ill of the ceremony.

I have no clue who ringed me. Maybe there was something set up for people who wanted someone specific to do it, but everybody that I know just stood in one of the lines and walked to the front to get ringed.
 
That‘s very interesting to hear. It may be on a school-by-school basis because at the University of Toronto (Camp 1) all guests had to be obligated engineers and were required to provide documentation to prove that they were eligible to attend. People who were to be ‘ringed‘ had to make sure that the correct information was provided, or else their guests wouldn‘t be admitted. I was ringed by someone‘s guest, incidentally, being the first engineer from my family.

At any rate, I didn‘t mean to sound cranky in my post, just showing a bit of surprise. Is anyone else applying for EME?

ERTW
 
Same in the University of Waterloo, Camp 15 I believe. You‘re not allowed to see the ceremony if you‘re not an engineer. I didn‘t have a particular problem with it, and I respect the tradition. As for who ringed me, I gather it was some person deserving of respect, but I can‘t remember his name.

And I‘m applying for ENGR, interview tomorrow. ;)
 
Originally posted by Tyrnagog:
[qb] [snicker]

wonderful quote about engineers, Spr. Earl. I just read your post about your leadership style, and that is definitely something I wish to emulate, when I do get into a position of authority.

You sound like you would be a great leader and person to work with... [/qb]
Hey no sweat,but always remember to treat those under your charge with respect and the carrot work‘s better than the stick,but there does come a time when the stick must be used but use that stick fairly and sparingly and ranting and raving gets you nowhere. ;)

Also never ask those under you to do anything you would do not yourself!!

Lead by example and lead from the front ;)
 
spare the rod so that when th rod is used... it becomes that much more powerful of a tool...

That is something I have alway tried to live by.. is leading by example. You have more credibility and respect, which are two very important traits, wherever you are in life...
 
Ok I really must ask this question to you all, just remember it‘s only a question.

What do you consider a professional enigneer?

what prerquesets do you need? I know many people that do not have this fancy little ring everyone talks about, but I still consider them to be professional engineers. :confused:
 
By the strictest definition, a Professional Engineer is someone who has graduated from an accredited College of Engineering, and has been sanctioned by the provincial governing body to practice engineering in that province.

At least, that is what I believe to be the definition of a "professional engineer".

You don‘t need the iron ring to be an engineer.. and you can have it, and yet not be considered a professional engineer. If you are a professional engineer, you can sign off on projects, which gives you the liability of that project. For instance, if your team designs a bridge and you sign off on it, and it collapses, you, the signing engineer, could be held liable if it is determined that the design was flawed, or if there was something that could have prevented the collapse that was not done in the design stage.
 
Ok that sounds good to me. Cant wear the ring even if I had it. I like my fingers the way they are, 5 on each hand.
 
Yeah thats about right.

A professional engineer is someone regulated by law to be an engineer. It entitles them to put P.Eng next to their name and practice the profession (i.e. stamp drawings, etc.). Its similar to any other professional designation, like a CPA for accountants for instance. If a guy were to start a company and call it "Bob‘s Engineering", and he didn‘t have a P.Eng he could be forced to change it. It is against the law to advertise oneself as an engineer if you don‘t have the credentials.

The credentials involve certain components. You have to write a test, and you have to have four years of experience. There are a bunch of other rules as well. I‘m not certain, but I think having an engineering degree generally is a requirement, but there seem to be ways around that.

People who you consider "professional engineers" may not be strictly so by the definition. They might be professional and they might do some form of ‘engineering‘ work, but that doesn‘t officially make them an engineer as seen by the regulatory bodies. One recent issue is the use of Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers using the term "engineer". People were actively promoting themselves as engineers when they were not. I haven‘t kept up with recent happenings however, so I don‘t know how it turned out.

There are other people considered engineers who also do not have the official credentials. I don‘t know how exactly military/combat engineers and other engineers without degrees (steam/power engineers working at plants, for example) fit in, but my impression is that they were using the term before professional engineers were, so its completely acceptable. Its also an internal thing, so it doesn‘t seem to make much difference. But a combat engineer couldn‘t get out of the military and go start up an engineering firm and advertise himself as an engineer, as far as I‘m aware.
 
But a combat engineer couldn‘t get out of the military and go start up an engineering firm and advertise himself as an engineer, as far as I‘m aware.

I am kind of curious of this comment and if someone could help me out with this one . As you reach certain rank levels in the military or take certain courses, can you not challenge exams or the such to increase your worth on the street?
Any comments? :salute:
 
Actually I did some research after my last post yesterday just to clarify a few matters for myself.

A person not holding an engineering degree can get professional engineer status by writing the exam and having eight years of experience.

The only catch is that the experience is checked by the board of examiners to make sure that it meets certain guidelines. The way is worded in my guide, and online, is unclear to me however. I‘m still awaiting a response from APEGGA to clear it up, but they say that a professional engineer must supervise the work. If thats not possible then you can have a member outside your place of work review your work and have discussions with you. But then it mentions that all plans, reports, and specifications of a professional nature must be reviewed by a professional member and he/she must take professional responsibility for that work. I‘m trying to figure out how this could possibly work in a military setting though, as I‘m guessing that due to security issues, it isn‘t possible to get someone to review all such things. Its all worded VERY vaguely, so I‘m still trying to figure this stuff out too.
 
At Waterloo, we are required to read the book titled Introdutction to Professional Engineering in Canada (Andrews, Aplevich, et al., 2003). Some of the facts about engineering are:

-The term engineer derives from the latin word ingenium, meaning talent, genius cleverness, or native ability.

-the term engineer was first used to describe persons who had the ability to invent and operate weapons of war.

-later the term was associated with the design and construction of works, such as ships, roads, canals, and bridges. The people skilled in these fields were non-miltary, and hence civil engineers.

-In Canada,the title Professional Engineer, is restricted by law to mean those persons who have demonstrated their competence and have been licensed by a provincial licensing body. Exceptions are made to stationary and sometimes MILITARY engineers, who are subject to other regulations.

-the terms, engineer, engineering, P.Eng, professional engineer, consulting engineer are official marks held by the Canadian Council of Engineers, but do not necessarily mean the same thing.

-The engineer typically provides the key link between theory and practical applications. The engineer must have a combinations of extensive theoretical knowledge, the ability to think creatively, the knack of obtaining practical results, and the ability to lead a team toward a common goal (sounds like BOTC). The bachelor‘s degree is the basic education requirement, although the master‘s or doctorate degree is useful and preferred by employers. In Canada, a person taing responsibility for engineering work affecting public safety is required, by provincial law, to be a member or license of the provincial Association of engineers. membership confers the right to use the title Professional engineer, P.Eng.

-Engineering skills. mathematical skil and scientific knowledge, analytical ability, Manufacturing and construction knowledge, open-mindedness, decision-making ability, communication skills, Inventiveness

-" A profession is a self-selected, self-disciplined group of individuals who hold themselves out to the public as possessing a special skill derived from training and education and who are prepare to exercise that skill in the interests of others." Think of (engineering, accounting, medicine, law, and others)

-legal definition of engineering:
"... any act of designing, composing, evaluating, advising, reporting, directing, or supervising wherein the afeguarding of life, health, property, or the public welfare is concerned, and that requires the application of engineering principles, but does not include practicing as a natural scientist."

-admission to the engineering profession
-be a Canadian citizen, or have permanent
resisdent status
-have a minumu age of 18 years
-satisfy the academic requirements(an
accredited degree)
-pass the professional practice examination, can
only write after at least one year of graduation
-satisfy experience requirements 2-4 yrs
depending on province(there requirements are a
little sketchy and vague, however outside
general engineering practice, equivalent
experience worth up to one year of expereince
includes, post-grad work,teaching upper class
university courses, work-term (ie. co-op
experience), military experience
-be of good character, as confirmed by referees

The above statements are compiled from Introdutction of Professional Engineering in Canada (Andrews, Aplevich, et al., 2003). They seem a little wishy-washy, engineers aren‘t english lit majors afterall. It leaves a lot for interpretation, but you get some feeling of what engineering is. I good book to read about the engineering profession is Petroski‘s, To Engineer is Human.

In regards to Profesional Engineers in Ontario, I am lead to presume that you must graduate with a degree from an university with an accredited engineering program, there are 13 accredited universities in Ontario. However you can obtain a Certified Engineering Technologist or a Certified Engineering Technician with a rellevent College diploma. Either you need a university degree to obtain your P.Eng. or the school neglected to tell us otherwise in hopes to eliminate attrition which could be just as likely. In regards to combat engineers coming out of the military and opening up shop so to speak, if they have P. Eng. designation, even if required experience came through the mltary as long as the experience fits the PEO guidlines. then certainly they can perform engineering duties in the civilian world. however claiming to be a consulting engineer when you are not can fnd you in the blue section of the Engineering Dimensions magazine in Ontario, if you are familiar with that publication.
 
I stumbled upon this article today. Engineers are taking things seriously!!

http://www.canada.com/montreal/specials/business/story.html?id=EFD71C59-3810-4235-BB8B-1EB1DB1AB575
 
Hmm, yeah, I did a little research on the matter. I used to be under the impression that Alberta‘s standards were that you needed a degree until I read otherwise.

http://www.peo.on.ca/registration/regn3.html

Its more strict than Alberta, but they‘ve got still some loopholes for people without engineering degrees. Still, the loopholes are basically well covered. If someone doesn‘t have an engineering degree its not easy for them to get an engineering job, so its not a giant loophole. Even with Alberta‘s 8-year experience with no degree, its probably unlikely that anybody will be able to get the designation unless they‘ve absolutely earned it.
 
that makes sense. Similar to enigineers from other countries coming in. They have to assess their education requirements. I read in Introdutction of Professional Engineering in Canada (Andrews, Aplevich, et al., 2003) that foreign engineers wishing to practice they need to take in the region of 20 three hour educational exams to assess their pass academic competence. I would assume it is something similar for persons without a degree from an accreditted university.
 
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