Pipeline Thru Canada to Midwest On Track

[couchcommander]

" Being a former accountant in the corporate world he agreed with my view, saying that we could spend hundreds of billions in tax cuts for the corporations but all we would see is it being eaten up with no real effect; and that the key was greater education, especially post secondary, to increase productivity. This makes sense, as someone who is highly trained in what they do (and he was actualyl clear on this, not just university, but skilled trades as well) will usually "produce" more efficiently and effectively than a relatively untrained person (think of how a skilled master carpenter is a lot more productive (in terms of the value of goods he can produce in any given time) than an untrained laborourer trying to do the same thing. ))"

- An interesting segway. But, lets keep the tax cuts, but apply them surgically.  At the same time, use targetted investment in education.  Let's fund better the degrees, diplomas and tickets we need in our economy and let other degrees (basket weaving, neanderthal S&M practices, homosexuality among consenting pet rocks) pay the FULL cost of education.

While we are at it, lets cut the "bring in a trained furriner rather than train an untrained Canadian" program that is turning our native born youth into welfare bums.

Tom

Sounds good, as long as the tax cuts are surgical and we can be reasonably certain that they will have the desired effect.

 

[larry Strong]

Nobody "nearly ruined" anybody. No need to get melodramatic when a politician does what is in the best interest of the majority of Canadians, who simply happen to reside east of the prairies.

What do you know about the effect's of the NEP upon the average Albertan that worked in the patch. Were you there at the time?

Thousands upon thousands of people in the private sector lost their jobs, their homes, their cars, their dignity, some even took their own lives.

Your quoted statement above is totally ridiculous.

 

[LF(CMO)]

There claim there are shortages of "skilled workers" on the oil patch and the oil patch is using this B.S. as an excuse to employ immigrants as cheap labour.

If you lose your job, blame the dinsosaur Ralph Klein and his corporate stooges who employ immigrants ahead of well-qualified Albertans.

Stupid statements with no basis of fact whatsoever.


Is this immature nonsense supposed to impress anyone Canadian? And what when the oil is gone and Alberta is another whiny have-not province, desperate for transfer-payments from industrial rich Ontario?

With respect to the NEP, you can disagree with how Trudeau used the moeny, but that 200 billion to 300 billion he seized was NOT going to go to Albertans instead, it was to go to American oil conglomerates like EXXON   Mobil (Imperial Oil--Esso) and Royal Dutch Shell at ZERO royalty, with few taxes paid and most of the profits reported in foreign countries.

The NEP made Albertans richer, as the money was (and still is) feeding corporations at the expense of everyone else.


I believe in capitalism but there is no reason for oil to be privately-owned. If Canada had a 100% public NEP we would have been debt free nationally even at high interest rates by 1990.

What's your example? Canada Post?
Ironically, even oil company polls originally showed support for the NEP in Alberta

The above is completely unfounded and ridiculous.  What 'figment of your imagination poll' are you referring to?

 

[sheikyerbouti]

First off NEP, while poorly-timed, was not fully responsible for the collapse of oil prices on the global market.  Saudi Arabia and a glut of newly built refining capacity were mostly responsible for the dramatic collapse of prices.

While some Albertans may have suffered, how much of that is exclusively due  to the NEP? It is largely a myth to implicate the Government for something that was well beyond their full control. Interest rates, Poor federal budget procedures, lack of personal savings and ineffecient workers were just as responsible for the collapse in the newly developed oil patch.

While a comforting appeal to sentiment, it is untrue that Albertans had their lives and  economy turned upside down by an inept, and corrupted Federal boogy monster. Remember that Natural resources are governed by the provinces and premier Lougheed could very well have  withdrawn his provinces support (as little as there was). If it is impractical to pay a Canadian to do a job that costs less if performed by a Saudi or Iraqi, therefore it should come as no surprise that the Canuck loses his job first.


To LF(CMO).... Do you honestly understand the underpinnings of the NEP? The goal of the NEP was to create a new industry for Canada, to gain greater control over the oil patch, to create Canadaian "know-how", and finally, to lessen the impact of high oil prices on the whole of the Canadian economy.  There was never any intention to just give away this oil for free.

  If you want to complain or retort at least familiarize yourself with the facts as opposed to mostly groundless accounts of nameless individuals who somehow prop up your arguments. The NEP was a nationalist program, which if succesfully implemented would have sheltered Canadians from global recession simply by exploiting a resource that is ours, not the Americans, Indians or the Chinese. Ours...

 

[larry Strong]

Another Eastern armchair general who was likely not   there at the time, but know that nothing happend. Well here's afew quick facts about the "Myth"

In this province it was a man-made, economic Armageddon, and there's no myth about the impact on the lives of ordinary people. The big oil companies adjusted to the NEP, but most folks could not drive away to Wyoming or simply rewrite their revenue forecasts.

Albertans collectively lost an estimated $5 billion in home equity after the introduction of the NEP. Many people walked away from homes they could no longer afford and couldn't sell.

There were massive layoffs, and some companies simply closed their doors. Guthrie McLaren, a Nisku-based drilling company, laid off its entire workforce of 225 people and called in the receiver. Unemployment rates went from almost nothing to 12%, and higher than that in Edmonton and Calgary.



While some Albertans may have suffered, how much of that is exclusively due   to the NEP? It is largely a myth to implicate the Government for something that was well beyond their full control. Interest rates, Poor federal budget procedures, lack of personal savings and ineffecient workers were just as responsible for the collapse in the newly developed oil patch.


How were we inefficient???

Alberta's unemployment was at 3.9% from 1979 to 1981. it nearly doubled in 1982 to 7.7% and climed to 11% bin 1983. It is estimated that there was as many as 200,000 job losses (Fiqures by Stats Canada)

Housing starts in Calgary went from about 15,000 in 1980, to approx 10,000 in 1981. In 1982 that fiqure was cut in half and in 1983 starts were less that 2,000. (Fiqures from the City of Calgary)

So if you pay real close attention here you will notice that not only rig hands etc were affected, but every single service sector job and construction jobs were also impacted.

By 1982 the CPA (Canadian Petrolium Association) blamed the NEP for 15,000 job losses and a 22% decline in drilling activities. How much squeeling do you think all those union workers at the big 4 would be doing if the auto sector went thru a 22%   cutback in work.

** 1981 western canadian industry stats compared to 1980 fiqs

- Well completions down 24%
- Rigs available down 19%
- Active rigs down 33%
- Land sales down 46%
- crude and synthetic oil production down 10% (CPA stats)

** Major projects shelved due to the NEP

- $12 billion Cold Lake heavy-oil progect
- $13 billion Alsands porject
- Heavy oil upgrader in Sasktchewan
- Alaskan Highway pipeline                (CPA stats)

** After 1 year of the NEP, the CAODC (Canadian Association of Oilwell Drilling Contractors) said the value of equiptment that left the western provinces to work in the states exceeded $1 billion. Over that time 189 drilling rigs and 161 service rigs had to be shut down due to lack of work and 175 drilling rigs and 78 service rigs left Canada.

Remember that Natural resources are governed by the provinces and premier Lougheed could very well have   withdrawn his provinces support (as little as there was).


Really?

So Alberta's offer to sell oil to the rest of Canada at 75% of the world price was nothing? The offer to use the heritage savings trust fund to finance national energy sufficiency was nothing?

The truth, clear with the hindsight of 25 years, is that Alberta's offer was not enough for a federal government with a spiralling deficit and no interest in reining in its spending. Only an energy tax grab would provide the quick fix the Trudeau government was looking for.

Even Rene Levesque, Quebec's separatist premier, saw through the B.S. the 76-year-old Lalonde is still trying to peddle. "They just ravaged Alberta's resources to cut down the (federal) deficit," Levesque observed at the time.

As for trying everything in the book to avoid unilateral federal action: There was no negotiation before the announcement of the NEP. Or in the timeless words of Peter Lougheed when he went on television 25 years ago tonight to address Albertans, "The Ottawa government has, without negotiation, without agreement, simply walked into our home and occupied the living room."


Some excerpts from the Calgary and Edmonton Sun Archives