Phoenix Pay System - Shit's Horrible

[PPCLI Guy]

If I had to choose Leave Without Pay over Work Without Pay, I know what I would choose....

 

[dapaterson]

The beauty of Phoenix is that you can take Leave Without Pay and still get paid...

 

[Gunner98]

This is what scares me from the article: "Qualtrough said a working group of ministers is now having preliminary discussions on how a two-track process could unfold. Public servants and unions will be consulted for ideas and she said no staff, money or other resources will be diverted from fixing Phoenix to the second track of looking at new options."  Ministers, preliminary discussion, and could - sounds like firm action to me!

I think it would sound better if Qualtrough and Brison resigned for failing to take decisive action as the Paymaster and general manager should.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Today is the 2nd anniversary of the Liberal's launch of Phoenix, with no end in sight for cost to taxpayers and public servants or resolution. 

Happy  :trainwreck:  guys.

 

[dapaterson]

The Citizen has a pretty good history of Phoenix.  Or jump to the bottom and see a nice collection of ATIP'd documents.

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/politics/risks-unheeded-journey-without-end-the-seeds-of-the-tortured-phoenix-pay-project-were-planted-three-decades-ago

 

[dapaterson]

On a different note: Although officially DND's T4s for civilians are not available in Phoenix until Tuesday, 27 February, mine (at least) has shown up on the CRA My Account page.

And it looks to be more or less correct!

 

[garb811]

Saw a slide deck the other day that indicated for "low priority" items, such as acting pay, it could be up to three years before they get around to actioning it.

 

[Gunner98]

On a different note: Although officially DND's T4s for civilians are not available in Phoenix until Tuesday, 27 February, mine (at least) has shown up on the CRA My Account page.

And it looks to be more or less correct!

DND/Public Service T4s were available for many (if not all) by noon on Friday 23 February 2018.

 

[mike63]

On a different note: Although officially DND's T4s for civilians are not available in Phoenix until Tuesday, 27 February, mine (at least) has shown up on the CRA My Account page.

And it looks to be more or less correct!

I'm looking at MyAccount right now, but I don't see where you can print off a copy of the T4.  Is that possible or do you have to get it from work?  I retired in Jan and am not at work.

 

[dapaterson]

At the bottom of the home page there should be a link to your forms.  Follow that, select the year you want, then the type of form you want.

 

[mike63]

At the bottom of the home page there should be a link to your forms.  Follow that, select the year you want, then the type of form you want.

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.  Yep, I can see that and the forms but it doesn't give me an option to print off the T4, only thing I can do is see the box number, box name and box value.

I guess I'll have to contact my old supvr or HR to see eh.

 

[dapaterson]

Thanks for getting back to me so quickly.  Yep, I can see that and the forms but it doesn't give me an option to print off the T4, only thing I can do is see the box number, box name and box value.

I guess I'll have to contact my old supvr or HR to see eh.

As long as you have all the info you're GTG.  If it's for your accountant, print the CRA page - that should be sufficient.

 

[dapaterson]

...and today PSPC shut down access to Phoenix, because apparently a bunch of people were getting two pays instead of one.  So, hopefully, employees might get access to their pay statements on payday, Wednesday.

The trainwreck continues...

 

[Blackadder1916]

I was reading through a number of threads that accumulated while I was away from computer use and this one caught my attention.  I acknowledge that this particular post pre-dates that and thus is necroposting but some of the assumptions made need correcting.

So, if it's a taxable benefit, let look at it this way.

Government over pays me $2000 at 0% interest.
The CRA assume that that is a taxable benefit. Had I taken a loan from the bank, I'd pay, lets say, 5%.
Amortize that over the year, compounded monthly, and the total interest owed would be $102.32.
So, the CRA is saying I received a "taxable benefit akin to $102.32 ".
Using the Federal and Provincial tax rates for my income level, that works out to about $38.02 that I would owe the government in taxes.

Ok, so I take the $2000 and invest in in a GIC at 2% and walk away with $2,040.37, earning a net of $2.35. Yay for me.
But GICs are locked it. What if they claw the $2000 back before it reaches annuity?
Ok, so invest in a Mutual Fund instead. Same amount of work, potentially higher rate of return. Oh wait, you picked the wrong one and you actually just lost money.

I can't believe they would expect the average joe to go through all this over a few dollars taxes.

Even if they accidentally doubled my salary, it works out to roughly $2000 in taxes.

Hurrah for the small guy.

Yes, an incurred debt to an employer "could" be considered a taxable benefit, but in most cases such as the Phoenix ****-up it would be unlikely.  However, some of the assumptions you made in your calculation are in error.

Interest rate - the CRA would not use a "potential" interest rate comparable to a bank.  They determine the interest each quarter based on the average of rates payable on treasury bonds.  In this quarter the rate is:  1.0%  (It hasn't changed for some time)
https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/news/newsroom/tax-tips/tax-tips-2017/interest-rates-first-calendar-quarter-2018.html

•The interest rate used to calculate taxable benefits for employees and shareholders from interest free and low-interest loans will be 1%.

Compounding - In determining the taxable benefit accruing from an interest-free or low interest loan (or debt) they do not compound. (or at least they never have in the few tax files I've handled with interest free loans) It is a simple application of the interest rate pro-rated for the number of days in the tax year that the loan or debt is outstanding.  So your notional $2000 debt would be $2000 X 1.0% X 365/365 = $20.

 

[daftandbarmy]

...and today PSPC shut down access to Phoenix, because apparently a bunch of people were getting two pays instead of one.  So, hopefully, employees might get access to their pay statements on payday, Wednesday.

The trainwreck continues...

Meanwhile, in Victoria, all the welfare people are being paid exactly on time, which is a problem for the police:

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/victoria-police-chief-wants-welfare-cheque-distribution-staggered-to-ease-911-overload

Maybe we could get the BC Ministry of Social Development to take on the payment process for Federal Civil Servants?

 

[George Wallace]

...and today PSPC shut down access to Phoenix, because apparently a bunch of people were getting two pays instead of one.  So, hopefully, employees might get access to their pay statements on payday, Wednesday.

The trainwreck continues...

So?  None of they have check their bank accounts to verify?   

 

[dapaterson]

So?  None of they have check their bank accounts to verify?   

With Phoenix having as its back-end a random number generator, it's useful to examine your pay statement in advance so you can make arrangements, if need be, when your pay is going to be messed up again.

It's called planning ahead.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Meanwhile, in Victoria, all the welfare people are being paid exactly on time, which is a problem for the police:

http://vancouversun.com/news/local-news/victoria-police-chief-wants-welfare-cheque-distribution-staggered-to-ease-911-overload

Maybe we could get the BC Ministry of Social Development to take on the payment process for Federal Civil Servants?

I think they should phoenix all of welfare......

 

[mike63]

As long as you have all the info you're GTG.  If it's for your accountant, print the CRA page - that should be sufficient.

Update to my situ - received by T4 via snail mail this past week, so I'm not worried about that anymore.  Also, Phoenix pay was stopped right after my retirement date, so my pay has stopped, which is a good thing because of what I have heard about others continuing to get pad after retirement.  Now, I just have to wait until they adjust my pension.

 

[Loachman]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-cost-more-than-one-billion-dollars-1.4594115

Cost of Phoenix federal payroll debacle surpasses $1B

Millions in costs related to troubled pay system weren't included in 2018 budget

Julie Ireton · CBC News · Posted: Mar 26, 2018 6:11 PM ET | Last Updated: March 28

The department in charge of the federal government's Phoenix pay system now says the combined cost of implementing and fixing the ailing program has exceeded $1 billion.

Several weeks ago, CBC News requested an accurate and up-to-date tally of Phoenix costs from Public Services and Procurement Canada (PSPC).

The department provided a graph explaining all the "investments" it has made in the pay system, but not all the expenditures were included in the federal government's 2018 budget.

They now total $1.192 billion.

The new tally, and the way the government handled its dissemination, has come as a disappointment to some Phoenix watchers.

https://globalnews.ca/news/4111787/bureaucrats-working-under-harper-and-trudeau-rejected-ibms-advice-to-delay-phoenix/

Politics March 28, 2018 7:45 pm  Updated: March 28, 2018 10:55 pm   

Bureaucrats working under Harper and Trudeau rejected IBM’s advice to delay Phoenix

By David Akin  Chief Political Correspondent  Global News

IBM Canada advised federal bureaucrats working for both the Harper government and the Trudeau government to delay the start date for the troubled federal payroll project known as Phoenix, advice bureaucrats working for both administrations could not accept, Global News has learned.

IBM officials were set to testify Wednesday night in front of a Senate committee probing the Phoenix problems, and hours before that testimony, told Global News that the federal bureaucrats leading the project were advised as early as July 2015 that the original target dates to turn the system on in October and December 2015 were too ambitious and that the government should move the start back by about eight months.

“We started offering this advice in July of 2015,” said IBM Canada vice-president Regan Watts. “We continued to give that advice to the government, through July, August, September, December and the early part of 2016, that, in our judgment, the project was not ready to go live.”

But bureaucrats told IBM that payroll specialists had already been given notice that their jobs were being moved and centralized at a processing centre in Miramichi, N.B. That, IBM says, was one of the reasons that bureaucrats said they needed the system to be up and running no later than April 2016

“Ultimately, we’re in the advice business,” said Watts. “We offered our advice to the client and the client made a decision and we supported their decision by making adjustments that were required to support a ‘go live’ on their timeline.”

In July of 2015, when IBM first raised a red flag about the Phoenix project, the ministers in charge of the file would have been Tony Clement and Diane Finley, both of whom are still in the House of Commons as Conservative MPs in Andrew Scheer’s caucus.

But a month after that, in August 2015, there were no more ministers as the country was in the midst of a general election campaign. Phoenix development would have been left to those bureaucrats.

When the Trudeau Liberals won, a new cabinet was not sworn until November 2015.

IBM makes no claims as to what the bureaucrats were telling their political masters but they are being clear on one point: The company was solely responsible for the technology, taking a software product manufacturing by another vendor, Oracle’s PeopleSoft unit, and installing it and adapting it for use by the Government of Canada, which remained, at all times, the project manager for Phoenix.