Peaceniks Try Direct Mail on Vandoos Destined for AFG

[medaid]

I'm the one in charge of the downward spiral around here mister!

And don't you forget it. 

Yes Prof. Reccesoldier  ;D

 

[Haggis]

At Reply No. 117, Valcartier2007 indicated that they would respond this evening.  Don't think we'll see any traffic before then.

 

[membrain]

I agree with Crantor. There is no way that you can have a true debate with people who have an agenda like theirs.

 

[Yrys]

I agree with Crantor. There is no way that you can have a true debate with people who have an agenda like theirs.

Why ? I don't think it depends on the opinion of someone, but on the person itself... There is people willing to debate
everywhere, it's seem to me, even if it's a difficult think because people tend to look for facts that agree with their value,
rather then a broader perspective...

 

[Trogdor]

Good on you to those troops and civies who have taken the time and effort to point out the fundamental flaws with these groups' way of thinking.

I won't even bother opening a dialogue with these people as I make it a personal policy to not discuss anything of any significance with people who ultimately are supporting a return to power for the Taliban.

As a soldier who is deploying to Afghanistan I can say this.  I have spent a lot of time thinking about the morality, the risks, the costs and the objectives of this mission.  After all this thinking I have come to one conclusion.  This mission is worth risking my life to stop the Taliban and Al Qaeda from regaining control.  Osama Bin Laden's words denouncing Western soldiers for being in Afghanistan have not deterred me, the reality that I am going to be away from my loved ones for a long time has not deterred me and the threat of an armed enemy who has no respect for innocent life has not deterred me from serving.  Therefore a factually flawed argument made by people who have never really had to fight for their freedom is going to do very little to shake my resolve.

 

[Arsenal]

Well said Wolfe117.

 

[Yrys]

I won't even bother opening a dialogue with these people as I make it a personal policy to not discuss anything of any significance with people who ultimately are supporting a return to power for the Taliban.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about the morality, the risks, the costs and the objectives of this mission. This mission is worth risking my life to stop the Taliban and Al Qaeda from regaining control.

To be willing to risk your live and incure all the incomfort of doing a tour there denote a  REAL strong passion for the mission. I understand why you don't want
to dialogue with them. But if everyone that are for the mission would do that, the media would be fill only with their opinions, and the public opinion would turn even more against it, which could mean that a minority government may choose to rethink its commitment.

I admire people that are willing to debate, and are able to do so with facts and a continuing controls of their strongs passion and emotions.
It's not something that I'm always able to do...

 

[foerestedwarrior]

OK, I am still confused as to why there is reference to US actions in AFG, and soldiers claiming Conscientious Objector Status or Deserting. You might as well be quoting the German, or French army(just first two countries came to my head). This is CANADA, different military then the US.

 

[Greymatters]

This post has really flown off the handle since I last looked at it.  Congrats to the mods on keeping it on the rails.

On a side note, a simple search of Canada 411 reveals that the contact number for Valcartier2007 is unlisted, but it is posted here by CNW group newswire:
http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/June2007/12/c3587.html

 

[DaveTee]

No matter what these groups theorize or put forward as "proof", my question to them is this:
Assuming your right and Canadians do leave, what do you see taking it's place, realistically speaking. Do you think that if Canadians leave all will be a-ok again (was it ever?) in Afghanistan? Do you think the Taliban will say "hey we won, let's reach out to our former enemies and hug them!"

So please Valcartier 2007, tell me what you see as the future of the country after a NATO pullout and how in realistic sense that could possibly, in any way shape or form, be a benefit to the Afghans?

 

[Greymatters]

Looking at the alignment of the group, it has direct ties to anarchist, anti-war, and anti-globalization groups in eastern Canada.  What is of concern is that the group has aligned itself with and is being promoted by numerous groups whose goal is not to achieve anything but gain nationwide attention.  What are they protesting?  Anything that will get them noticed.  Nearly all the material produced is factually distorted to meet their own propoganda campaigns.  Below is a list of associated groups:

À Babord
ACCtion Against Atlantica
Action créative/Acción creativa
A - I n f o s
Anarchist Black Cross Federation-Montreal
Anarkhia
Anti-Imperialist Consulta
L'Association étudiante du Cégep de Saint-Laurent (AÉCSL)
L'Association générale étudiante du Cégep du Vieux-Montréal (AGECVM)
L'Association facultaire des étudiants en sciences humaines de l'UQÀM (AFESH-UQÀM)
L'Association pour une solidarité syndicale étudiante (ASSÉ)
la Bibliothèque anarchiste DIRA
Block the Empire-Montreal aka Bloquez l'empire-Montréal
Center for Philippine Concerns (CPC)
Le Centre d'Asie du Sud (CERAS)
Collectif Piranha (Québec)
la coalition Guerre à la guerre aka The War on War! Coalition
La coalition Guerre à la Guerre: Val-Cartier 2007 (Québec)
Coalition Against the Deportation of Palestinian Refugees (CADPR)
Le Collectif opposé à la brutalité policière (COBP)
Le Comité des sans-emploi (Montréal-Centre)
Documentation Information Ressources Alternatives (DIRA)
Food Not Bombs
Le Frigo Vert
Le Front Rouge
Grassroots Action for Student Power-McGill (GRASPé)
Groupe d'action et de sensibilisation au pouvoir étudiant (GRASPÉ-McGill)
le Groupe de Recherche d'Intéret Public (GRIP-UQÀM)
Haiti Action Montreal
La Otra Campaña Montréal
Immigrant Workers Center (IWC)
International League of Peoples' Struggles (ILPS)-Montreal
International Solidarity Movement (ISM)-Montreal
Kabataang Montreal
Les Lucioles
Liberterre
Mauvaise Herbe
Northeastern Federation of Anarcho-Communists (NEFAC)
No One Is Illegal-Montreal/Personne n'est illégal-Montréal
La Pointe Libertaire
La RueBrique
Libertad (Cégep du Vieux-Montréal)
Open Door Books/Livres aux prisonniers et prisonnières
Les Panthères Roses
Peoples' Global Action (c/o Canadian Union of Postal Workers (CUPW))
Philippines-Canada Task Force on Human Rights (Quebec)
Phillipine Women's Center of Montreal
PINAY (Filipina Women of Quebec)
Pointe Libertaire
Projet Accompagnement Solidarité Colombie (PASC)
Quebec Public Interest Research Group (QPIRG-McGill)
Quebec Public Interest Research Group (QPIRG-Concordia)
Réseau anarchiste en milieu étudiant (RAMÉ)
Réseau Anti-Capitaliste de Montréal aka The Anti-Capitalist Network of Montreal
Résistance haïtienne au Québec
The Resist Collective - Vancouver
La Rue Brique
Société Bolivarienne du Québec
Solidarité sans frontières/Solidarity Across Borders
South Asian Women's Community Center (SAWCC)
Students Taking Action in Chiapas (STAC)
L'Observatoire de l'Asie Centrale et du Moyen-Orient
Tadamon! Montréal
Unité des socialistes iraniens à Montréal
Unité théâtrale d'interventions loufoques (UTIL)

 

[RatCatcher]

I would also give a Brave Zulu to the mods. To me, being one of those targeted in this campaign, it is quite emotional.
I have a couple questions for Valcartier 2007, I wrote an e-mail to you guys in regards to what you sent and never got an answer...will I ever???

And also, even though I know the answer, why this rotation? Why not Pet or Edm....?

Do any of you have any military experience, Canada or otherwise???

Have you ever done a fact-finding mission to Afghanistan?????

What is your opinion of the Village Medical Outreach program???

I look forward to the answers

Again, BZ to the staff! 

 

[a_majoor]

Interesting to see this happening from KAF, where we see a constant stream of initiatives to rebuild the nation and the determined efforts of the Taliban to undo that work. Perhaps the preceptions of this group are warped because they are only shown the efforts of the Taliban through the MSM, and fail to do the small amount of work required to see the rest of what we do?

The Taliban do not place any weight on concepts like freedom (of speech, association); ownership of property or the Rule of Law. Their response to our work is increasingly turning against the beneficiaries of that work, the Afghan people themselves, since attacking old men, women and children is far easier than attempting to displace the ISAF and (increasingly) the local GoA forces. This is actually nothing new, when the Taliban were in power they acted in the same manner. Their propaganda videos, which we see from time to time, are sickening orgies of bloodshed directed at the people of Afghanistan, and often the soldiers who watch them ask for them to be stopped. These are veterans of Afghanistan and sometimes Iraq, so this isn't an audience of shrinking violets. Seeing such savagery only increases our determination that this must be stopped.

This is the reality. Groups in Canada who claim to support human rights have the onus of proof placed on them to reconcile their actions that directly and indirectly support the existence of groups like the Taliban with their stated goals. There is no conflict with us; we support human rights and our actions serve to further the cause. Most of us would never have joined or volunteered otherwise.

 

[Haggis]

I wonder if Valcartier2007 has seen this, shared with the usual disclaimer:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/War_Terror/2007/06/15/4263716-cp.html

Small number of Que. soldiers active in Afghanistan

By STEPHANIE LEVITZ
   
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (CP) - They sing and tell jokes over their vehicle intercoms, but since they landed eight months ago there's been a lot of hard work and little play for the small company of Canadian soldiers from Quebec who are already in Afghanistan.

Though much is being made of the 2,000 soldiers from Valcartier, Que. arriving in August, a hardy band of 156 have been in Kandahar since December. And watching the attention bestowed on those about to arrive hasn't been easy for them.

"It's a bit of frustration from the French guys, to be honest," said Maj. Richard Collin, the commanding officer of C Company of the Royal 22nd Regiment, known as the Van Doos.

"They know when the next (rotation) is going to arrive there's going to be coverage all over the news in Quebec, and they'll say: 'I was there for nine months - I did that'."

The coverage is already happening in Canada.

There was the anti-war letter campaign last week asking the upcoming rotation to refuse to serve in Afghanistan. Then came word that military officials are planning a major public relations blitz to shore up public support.

It won't matter, said Capt. Michel Tousignant, 32, who commands a platoon of Canadian soldiers protecting the Provincial Reconstruction Team base in Kandahar city.

"It doesn't matter if it's a big group or a little group, the media gets tired easily," he said.

"If there is nothing extraordinary, like deaths, wounds or combat, immediately they aren't interested."

That rankles for the troops of "Crazy Company," as it's known, as the majority of their efforts have centred around what Tousignant calls the "less sexy" side of Canada's work in Afghanistan.

The 200-plus people at the PRT were hamstrung by a risky environment delaying development efforts before the Van Doos arrived to provide convoy protection and camp security.

Eight months later, the soldiers say they are extremely proud of what the security they've provided has accomplished.

Tousignant rattled off a list: a school in Sperwan Gar, canals, irrigation channels - all things that have helped win the support of Afghans and ensure stability.
But he admits it wasn't a job he was trained to do at first.

"At the start, we had focused our training on operations of war, but when we got here we quickly understood that our role with the reconstruction team wasn't about that," he said.

"It was much more about rapport with the people, working hand in hand to make progress in the country," he said.
Canada's policy for Afghanistan is officially known as a 3D approach - defence, development and diplomacy - but the lion's share of training leaves the latter two hanging, Collin said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

Troops are learning on the fly.

Collin tells a tale about a checkpoint Canadians were helping a local village build to protect the community from insurgents.

Working off the Canadian military playbook, the troops scouted out the ideal location and presented it to the local police. They rejected the choice and pointed to another site.

A few days later, Collin said, the police explained why: decades earlier, they had beaten back the Russian from the site they wanted to build on now.

"It made perfect sense," Collin said.

The relaxed and jovial approach the Van Doos take to their work in Afghanistan is perhaps mirrored by the few French books amid row upon row of English tomes at the PRT. Tucked between Tom Clancy and Stephen King are three French romance novels.

"Francophones have an approach that helps us avoid dangerous situations because we have the sympathy of the population," said Cpl. Charles Levesque-Desilets, 21, a sharpshooter.

"You can be aggressive doing security or you can be engaging, say hello, just these little gestures make all the difference in the mission."

As his troops' nine-month tour begins to wrap up, Collin said he knows the people of Quebec aren't paying much attention to the mission in Afghanistan now, but that their focus will change in the coming months.

"I hope it is not going to happen that a Tremblay or a guy with a real French name is going to be killed," he said.

"But the chance of ...," he said, without finishing the sentence. "At that time we're going to have lots of interest in Quebec; guys are going to pay attention a bit more."

The politics of the Canadian mission in Afghanistan can be argued endlessly at home, Collin said, but what remains important is the progress on the ground.

"We did lots of work. We pushed the issue the best we can, as fast as we can, but now it's dependent on the people," he said.

"We cannot do more than the Afghans are willing to do."

Yep, sure sounds like "war crimes" to me!

 

[George Wallace]

Greymatter

Thank you for your research and lists.  We already have a good idea who this person is, their home phone number, etc.  That is not the question here.  We all have a general idea of where these people are coming from. 

What we are looking forward to here, is not exposing the person posting, but their ideas.  We are looking for a debate.  We are looking for the truth in the facts they claim to be putting forward.  As you know, this site does not dwell well on people posting 'generalities'.  We like to keep it simple and deal with the 'real' FACTS. 

No 'Witch Hunt' need to take place.  Just a cool, calm discusion of the facts and which interpretation of those facts is correct.

 

[observor 69]

Greymatter

Thank you for your research and lists.  We already have a good idea who this person is, their home phone number, etc.  That is not the question here.  We all have a general idea of where these people are coming from. 

What we are looking forward to here, is not exposing the person posting, but their ideas.  We are looking for a debate.  We are looking for the truth in the facts they claim to be putting forward.  As you know, this site does not dwell well on people posting 'generalities'.  We like to keep it simple and deal with the 'real' FACTS. 

No 'Witch Hunt' need to take place.  Just a cool, calm discusion of the facts and which interpretation of those facts is correct.

+1 George, "just the facts mam", no bombast, no argumentative run on just the goal of informing our follow members, at all rank levels.
Thanks

 

[Zell_Dietrich]

Wow,  I go away for a few days and 5 pages get added!

I am glad that the very people we were talking about showed up.  I am looking forward to their responces.  Normally when I talk to an anti-afghanistan/NDP/... person it is one on one. Usually their arguments go along these lines:

"We are there for economic reasons"
"By us freeing up American troops, we are helping them in a war we don't support"
"we are trying to buy international reputation, the cost is the blood of our soldiers"
"If we simply pulled out, Canada would be less of a target because there would be less of a cause to attack us"
"we are doing more harm than good because our presence there is slowing down reconstruction efforts"

I've argued each argument several times - I think I even posted most of these on here.  

I wish I had more time to write a better post,  but I'm off to my send of dinner.  I'm off to Gagetown on Sunday.  I'm hoping that if I do well on my course I'll be allowed to request to be sent to Afghanistan.  (With that said,  I know IU have a ways to go before I'm qualified to even ask)

On a side note,  I am an Ocdt, in the reserves, going on CAP.  I know it is a lowly 'appointment' (I don't even have a rank) but still I did work hard to be where I am.  (Hopefully I'll be more proud of myself on the other side of the Summer)

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Okay, It's 20:10 in Quebec, how long do these guys work?? 

 

[Trinity]

Okay, It's 20:10 in Quebec, how long do these guys work?? 

Well, we did have how many umpteen people ask them way too many questions.

I highly doubt they can answer them all tonight.  As anxious as we all are they'll definitely
need some time to prepare a response (despite the fact they said tonight).

I can't wait to see their response myself.

 

[Haggis]

Okay, It's 20:10 in Quebec, how long do these guys work?? 

Well, the bars in La Belle Province close around 3:00 AM and they are students (mostly).  Also, what are your priorities on a beautiful spring evening in Canada? 

Me?  I'm passing by the computer on my way to the fridge.  :cheers: