Peaceniks Try Direct Mail on Vandoos Destined for AFG
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Bigmac said:
Bigmac
I've learned not to expect too much from the vocal 'extreme' minority in this country (even in Quebec). Once again, they have proved to be all talk - no action.
Same thing with this very thread. Despite the fact that V2007 has promised a response to one of the very first (and by far the most important) question posed to him by site members interested in his groups' point of view.
After a week and a half, we still have no answer to the big one.
V2007, I'm still eagerly awaiting your response, but just to bring it up again in case you've somehow forgotten this most important issue:
"What does your group intend to do about the situation in Afghanistan should coalition forces pull out now like your group sanctions?? How are you going to provide security, stability, and a bright future for the good citizens of Afghanistan??"
Does it really take this long to come up with an answer?? You've had since 2001 to think about it and get your collective shit together. Please don't tell me you have no plan, that you have nothing organized ... I'd be very disappointed individual to learn that a person such as you who is advocating and pushing for the CF to leave the overwhelming majority of Afghan citizens to protect themselves from extremists simply because we wear a CF uniform has squat plans in place on how to deal with the aftermath of such a move.
Can't you please post your plan?? You insist our government is so wrong being involved; just what the hell is your solution??
You wanted a debate. We're still waiting. Debating is about discussing ones options and their pros and cons. And, despite yourself being asked repeatedly and being given plenty of opportunity, you and your collective have failed to post a single damned option other than "get out now."
I thank my lucky stars every morning that I'm not a citizen in a country where ideological people, with no plans, such as yourself, decide my fate. I'm thinking that the good citizens of Afghanistan are happy for that too.
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I can understand why some people are against the war because they have non-violent and pacifist inclinations and in the end its their right to oppose government policy. However sometimes it seems that people would like to simply give a huge talk on creating a more peaceful world without looking at the reality of the situation. The fact is we can't keep on doing reconstruction as long as the Taliban is attacking, and things have been slowly but surely improving in Afghanistan. As for many of the "facts" in the letter to the Vandoos, they are all half truths, if you think Afghans were better off under the Taliban you are truly off in lala land.
As for why we're there, look up September 11, 2001. We have a reason for being there, and it can't really be compared with the current conflict in Iraq since that war was based of ficticious reasons, or for that matter it can't be compared to the Vietnam war either.
Its a conspiracy!!! :
They do in the Simpsons Treehouse of Horror specials.
I myself think that I'm fairly progressive [NDP] in my political views, but the anti-war crowd just seems out to lunch everytime they protest or open their mouths with regards to Afghanistan. I especially tire of the whole idea that Canadian soldiers are "imperialistic invaders".
As for why we're there, look up September 11, 2001. We have a reason for being there, and it can't really be compared with the current conflict in Iraq since that war was based of ficticious reasons, or for that matter it can't be compared to the Vietnam war either.
Its a conspiracy!!! :
They do in the Simpsons Treehouse of Horror specials.
I myself think that I'm fairly progressive [NDP] in my political views, but the anti-war crowd just seems out to lunch everytime they protest or open their mouths with regards to Afghanistan. I especially tire of the whole idea that Canadian soldiers are "imperialistic invaders".
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ArmyVern: The answer to your question is easy :
Mark
Ottawa
:Mark
Ottawa
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MarkOttawa said:
I get your sarcasm.
A cease-fire and peace process with those who would dishonour it the moment the boots are off-the-ground ... does not provide security, stability, electricity and reconstruction.
It only provides the hope for such, but then, so does the current mission ... and at least our collective "we's" are in there actually doing something about it right now, instead of bleating about it.
What is the plan for after the boots are off the ground?? Clearly your quote from the left leads one to believe that they have a plan in place to accomplish all these things with AFTER a cease-fire and pull-out ... Yes?? ... Maybe??
Where the heck is it? And do they have a Plan B for when the non-existant Plan A falls to rat-shit?? You know, other than a Plan B which calls for the troops to go in and evacuate their collective peaceful butts and have to start from scratch again??
Something tells me I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for the plan from the experts on the left-leaning teeter-totter.
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I'm in the midst of getting ready to move, so I've been away from the firing line for a couple of days. I just caught back up on the fray. Whew! That was knock-down, drag-out. Although it ended fairly predictably, I'm glad we decided to bring VC2007 and NIMN aboard. It was worth it.
First of all, IMHO there is a great danger in us constantly preaching to the converted around here: your arguments get stale and flabby because nobody seriously challenges them. Kind of like what happened to NIMN, who, like some sort of anarchic mad Rumplestiltskin, stamped his feet and ranted until he burst into flame and self-immolated. IMHO we gave ourselves a good intellectual shot in the arm by taking these folks on, although some of the very able posters who crossed swords with NIMN obviously don't need any help in the brains dept (not even fresh brains..).
Second, I was certain that NIMN would eventually reveal his true inner beliefs about us, despite his initial veneer of civility and patronizing lectures on assorted geopolitical and social issues. We all saw, in the end, exactly how I am sure he and most of his ilk view us soldiery: a collection of weak-willed redneck simpletons, culled from the dregs of society, witlessly doing the bidding of The Dark Ones while braying patriotic dogma. His final denouement was much like the memorable words of Jacques Parizeau who, (handed a defeat by the disobedient electorate), ranted darkly about "money and the ethnic vote..." thus exposing for all to see some of the nastier beliefs that often lie at the basis of extreme political movements. After all, who but the sick poor and stupid would join the Army, right? (Navy and Airforce people be quiet...)
Finally, I think that we got a chance to see how utterly sterile anarchism really is: it offers lots of "antis" to everything under the sun, but has thus far failed to offer any meaningful solution to anything. Perhaps this is why it is a belief system that has never, to the best of my knowledge, manifested itself in any kind of "government" (or is that an oxymoron?) or achieved much at all except provide a rallying banner for disaffected people who don't like "the System" but can't be bothered to do much constructive about it.
I hope that we have established a precedent that in future we don't just sit around muttering about folks who p1ss us off: we go out there and drag 'em into the living room!
Cheers
First of all, IMHO there is a great danger in us constantly preaching to the converted around here: your arguments get stale and flabby because nobody seriously challenges them. Kind of like what happened to NIMN, who, like some sort of anarchic mad Rumplestiltskin, stamped his feet and ranted until he burst into flame and self-immolated. IMHO we gave ourselves a good intellectual shot in the arm by taking these folks on, although some of the very able posters who crossed swords with NIMN obviously don't need any help in the brains dept (not even fresh brains..).
Second, I was certain that NIMN would eventually reveal his true inner beliefs about us, despite his initial veneer of civility and patronizing lectures on assorted geopolitical and social issues. We all saw, in the end, exactly how I am sure he and most of his ilk view us soldiery: a collection of weak-willed redneck simpletons, culled from the dregs of society, witlessly doing the bidding of The Dark Ones while braying patriotic dogma. His final denouement was much like the memorable words of Jacques Parizeau who, (handed a defeat by the disobedient electorate), ranted darkly about "money and the ethnic vote..." thus exposing for all to see some of the nastier beliefs that often lie at the basis of extreme political movements. After all, who but the sick poor and stupid would join the Army, right? (Navy and Airforce people be quiet...)
Finally, I think that we got a chance to see how utterly sterile anarchism really is: it offers lots of "antis" to everything under the sun, but has thus far failed to offer any meaningful solution to anything. Perhaps this is why it is a belief system that has never, to the best of my knowledge, manifested itself in any kind of "government" (or is that an oxymoron?) or achieved much at all except provide a rallying banner for disaffected people who don't like "the System" but can't be bothered to do much constructive about it.
I hope that we have established a precedent that in future we don't just sit around muttering about folks who p1ss us off: we go out there and drag 'em into the living room!
Cheers
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+1 pbi....very well written.
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pbi: As for "money and the ethnic vote", see these guest-posts at Daimnation!:
Dumont and the Jooooooos
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/009690.html
Quebec cartoonists agree: "Jews are devious"
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/009705.html
Mark
Ottawa
As for "money and the ethnic vote", see these guest-posts at Daimnation!:Dumont and the Jooooooos
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/009690.html
Quebec cartoonists agree: "Jews are devious"
http://www.damianpenny.com/archived/009705.html
Mark
Ottawa
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On this whole business, I have sometimes heard that those left-wing folk who shout about "struggling" for "revolution" on behalf of the masses actually don't love the proletariat types at all, but look on them as lumpkins who must be led by their intellectual and political betters, and put out of the way if they become too "reactionary". The masses are useful, but stupid, and certainly not able to find their own way out of their "empty lives" without people like NIMN and Co. to light the way.
I wonder what VC2007 et al. thought about the reaction at the parade? Would they have viewed it as a success?
Cheers
I wonder what VC2007 et al. thought about the reaction at the parade? Would they have viewed it as a success?
Cheers
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pbi said:
In their own twisted up minds, I beleive they'll say yes, they got national publicity and made aware of, regardless of the outcome, and thats what counts to them.
Personally, I find them a national embarrassment.
Although I don't agree with what they are doing, I fully defend their right to do it. Thats what we fight for!
My 2 bob,
Wes
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pbi: It's called Leninism--the vanguard of the proletariat.
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/his1b.htm
And from American Communists today:
http://rwor.org/a/v19/920-29/921/anar3.htm
Mark
Ottawa
http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/bcaplan/museum/his1b.htm
And from American Communists today:
http://rwor.org/a/v19/920-29/921/anar3.htm
Mark
Ottawa
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PBI, MarkOttawa beat me to it. "Populists" the world over have, and continue to use the ruse of egalitarian revolution to become tyrants in their own rights. Don't forget, Uncle Joe, Adolf, Pol, Mao, Fidel and more recently Hugo and Robert all came to power through methods labeled "popular", either by vote, revolution or insurrection.
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Sigh...and the wait continues for VC2007 to return...
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He is reading the board right now ;D
Shouldnt be long
Shouldnt be long
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Hi folks – we’re back!
It’s not an early morning, but a late night (it’s the St-Jean holiday in Quebec). There are several replies we’d like to make (most likely tomorrow night), but, we thought we’d get back to you about this question:
Our campaign – as Block the Empire, Guerre à la Guerre and other groups -- includes offering a dissenting point of view from the prevailing government and senior officer chorus about Canada’s role in Afghanistan.
As you know, there is a concerted “charm offensive” organized by the CF and Tories in Quebec to sell the Afghanistan mission (where at least 75% of the population is against the mission, according to recent polls). We feel it’s important to offer another point of view at these CF “psy-ops” on the Quebec population, when possible.
We were present in small numbers at the recent football game at Molson Stadium. About two-dozen of us handed out flyers to fans and soldiers, when possible. (BTW, Larry Smith, senior member of the Conservative Party, is the President of the Alouettes, which explains why they were willing to be part of this transparent PR event in Montreal.)
We also mobilized this past Friday in Quebec City (as this forum has discussed). Our goal was never to outnumber the soldiers, but to be an effective protest on the streets of Quebec City. Our demo numbered about 1000 people, which we consider to be significant. There were two buses from Montreal (about 100 folks) plus probably another 100 or so that drove their own vehicles to protest, as well as others from all over Quebec. Of course, the majority of folks were from Quebec City itself.
Importantly, at the end or our march (we took St-Jean into Place d'Youville and the Old City), about 500 protesters marched to the parade area. We were alongside the soldier parade for a good 30 minutes; at the end, a portion of our march was within the parade itself for a few minutes. That’s quite symbolic: marching Canadian Forces soldiers divided by banner-waving anti-war protesters, at least for a few minutes.
Despite the hype, on this forum and elsewhere (about violence, rock-throwing, jeering, etc), our demonstration got its point across effectively, in our view.
We didn’t have any beef with the soldiers, who politely either refused to take our flyers (the majority) or were curious and grabbed one (after their parade of course). Many of us had interesting conversations with supporters and family of the Valcartier soldiers too, who willingly took our Open Letter -- http://www.valcartier2007.ca/openletter.htm -- and other materials (the Open Letter was also postered along the parade route, along with the poster of "Soldiers in their own words" -- http://www.valcartier2007.ca/soldiers.htm).
The media attempts to portray Friday as “protesters versus soldiers”, when our goal was to get a debate going, not just via the media, or through the superficial intermediary of politicians, but also on the streets (maybe something of a novelty for “polite” Canadians).
Our message was also effectively carried by our active media spokespeople, including Joseph Bergeron, Sophie Schoen, Mathilde Forest-Rivière and others. Again, our efforts have been quite public and transparent.
(Many people on this forum have complained about mainstream media coverage of the parade; well, not surprisingly, we have our complaints too, about the superficial coverage of our protest.)
Generally, we’re reasonably satisfied about the success of the recent protests and pickets. Importantly, with our mailout to the Valcartier soldiers, we feel we’ve opened up space for discussion about another important element of the Afghanistan mission debate: the ability, and feasibility, of average soldiers to refuse to participate in a mission they consider to be ill-conceived, or unjust (that's what started this thread in the first place!).
And, to re-iterate, we are not targeting average soldiers and their families for blame (as Joseph Bergeron explained well on the clip that ran on CBC’s national news: http://www.cbc.ca/clips/mov/halton-parade070622.mov). Rather, we’re targeting the politicians and senior officers responsible for a disastrous policy. Two of our slogans on Friday night (especially while we marched alongside the soldier parade) were: "Le problème, c'est pas les soldats, c'est les politiques du Canada" and "Ramenez l'armée, envoyez le députés" [the slogans don’t sound so great in their English translation, so we’ll just leave them in their original French, which is quite straightforward anyway].
Our recent actions (at the stadium in Montreal, on the streets in Quebec City), build on other mobilizing efforts, such as pickets and protests last fall and this past spring against Hamid Karzai, Stephen Harper and Gordon O’Connor when they each visited Montreal. Moreover, we see our anti-war work as linked to other social justice organizing (which includes working in situations of extreme poverty and conflict).
Anyways, just sharing our overview of some recent events, including the Friday protest and parade.
Again, it’s a late night for us, not an early morning. We’ll get back to you about other stuff early this week. Don’t worry! We’re not going to disappear. We’re here to debate, dialogue, and defend our position, and to get more insights into yours. Just because we’re silent for few days doesn’t mean we’ve disappeared. And, we will answer your questions. You’re a tough bunch (in the good way, kind of), and we’ll definitely get back to you. We’ve provided some lengthy posts already, and we’ll provide some more.
Have a good and safe week all.
-- The Valcartier 2007/Block the Empire Team (English)
-----
www.valcartier2007.ca
info@valcartier2007.ca
It’s not an early morning, but a late night (it’s the St-Jean holiday in Quebec). There are several replies we’d like to make (most likely tomorrow night), but, we thought we’d get back to you about this question:
pbi said:
Our campaign – as Block the Empire, Guerre à la Guerre and other groups -- includes offering a dissenting point of view from the prevailing government and senior officer chorus about Canada’s role in Afghanistan.
As you know, there is a concerted “charm offensive” organized by the CF and Tories in Quebec to sell the Afghanistan mission (where at least 75% of the population is against the mission, according to recent polls). We feel it’s important to offer another point of view at these CF “psy-ops” on the Quebec population, when possible.
We were present in small numbers at the recent football game at Molson Stadium. About two-dozen of us handed out flyers to fans and soldiers, when possible. (BTW, Larry Smith, senior member of the Conservative Party, is the President of the Alouettes, which explains why they were willing to be part of this transparent PR event in Montreal.)
We also mobilized this past Friday in Quebec City (as this forum has discussed). Our goal was never to outnumber the soldiers, but to be an effective protest on the streets of Quebec City. Our demo numbered about 1000 people, which we consider to be significant. There were two buses from Montreal (about 100 folks) plus probably another 100 or so that drove their own vehicles to protest, as well as others from all over Quebec. Of course, the majority of folks were from Quebec City itself.
Importantly, at the end or our march (we took St-Jean into Place d'Youville and the Old City), about 500 protesters marched to the parade area. We were alongside the soldier parade for a good 30 minutes; at the end, a portion of our march was within the parade itself for a few minutes. That’s quite symbolic: marching Canadian Forces soldiers divided by banner-waving anti-war protesters, at least for a few minutes.
Despite the hype, on this forum and elsewhere (about violence, rock-throwing, jeering, etc), our demonstration got its point across effectively, in our view.
We didn’t have any beef with the soldiers, who politely either refused to take our flyers (the majority) or were curious and grabbed one (after their parade of course). Many of us had interesting conversations with supporters and family of the Valcartier soldiers too, who willingly took our Open Letter -- http://www.valcartier2007.ca/openletter.htm -- and other materials (the Open Letter was also postered along the parade route, along with the poster of "Soldiers in their own words" -- http://www.valcartier2007.ca/soldiers.htm).
The media attempts to portray Friday as “protesters versus soldiers”, when our goal was to get a debate going, not just via the media, or through the superficial intermediary of politicians, but also on the streets (maybe something of a novelty for “polite” Canadians).
Our message was also effectively carried by our active media spokespeople, including Joseph Bergeron, Sophie Schoen, Mathilde Forest-Rivière and others. Again, our efforts have been quite public and transparent.
(Many people on this forum have complained about mainstream media coverage of the parade; well, not surprisingly, we have our complaints too, about the superficial coverage of our protest.)
Generally, we’re reasonably satisfied about the success of the recent protests and pickets. Importantly, with our mailout to the Valcartier soldiers, we feel we’ve opened up space for discussion about another important element of the Afghanistan mission debate: the ability, and feasibility, of average soldiers to refuse to participate in a mission they consider to be ill-conceived, or unjust (that's what started this thread in the first place!).
And, to re-iterate, we are not targeting average soldiers and their families for blame (as Joseph Bergeron explained well on the clip that ran on CBC’s national news: http://www.cbc.ca/clips/mov/halton-parade070622.mov). Rather, we’re targeting the politicians and senior officers responsible for a disastrous policy. Two of our slogans on Friday night (especially while we marched alongside the soldier parade) were: "Le problème, c'est pas les soldats, c'est les politiques du Canada" and "Ramenez l'armée, envoyez le députés" [the slogans don’t sound so great in their English translation, so we’ll just leave them in their original French, which is quite straightforward anyway].
Our recent actions (at the stadium in Montreal, on the streets in Quebec City), build on other mobilizing efforts, such as pickets and protests last fall and this past spring against Hamid Karzai, Stephen Harper and Gordon O’Connor when they each visited Montreal. Moreover, we see our anti-war work as linked to other social justice organizing (which includes working in situations of extreme poverty and conflict).
Anyways, just sharing our overview of some recent events, including the Friday protest and parade.
Again, it’s a late night for us, not an early morning. We’ll get back to you about other stuff early this week. Don’t worry! We’re not going to disappear. We’re here to debate, dialogue, and defend our position, and to get more insights into yours. Just because we’re silent for few days doesn’t mean we’ve disappeared. And, we will answer your questions. You’re a tough bunch (in the good way, kind of), and we’ll definitely get back to you. We’ve provided some lengthy posts already, and we’ll provide some more.
Have a good and safe week all.
-- The Valcartier 2007/Block the Empire Team (English)
-----
www.valcartier2007.ca
info@valcartier2007.ca
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Valcartier: you said:
It's very interesting that the Right, the Left (amongst whom I would tend to include your party) and often folks in the Centre complain endlessly and with apparently genuine conviction that the Mainstream Media (MSM) is a totally biased tool of "The Other". You know:
"The MSM just serves the interests of corporate military-industrial complex and the agenda of the imperialist Israel apologists. They only print bad stuff about us guys on the Left"
So, just who does the media serve, if everybody is pissed off at them?
Cheers
It's very interesting that the Right, the Left (amongst whom I would tend to include your party) and often folks in the Centre complain endlessly and with apparently genuine conviction that the Mainstream Media (MSM) is a totally biased tool of "The Other". You know:
"The MSM just serves the interests of corporate military-industrial complex and the agenda of the imperialist Israel apologists. They only print bad stuff about us guys on the Left"
OR
"The MSM is full of left-wing commie pinko drughead freaks who hate the military and everything our society stands for. They only print bad stuff about us guys on the Right " OR
"The MSM doesn't bother representing what normal, everyday Canadians think. They sensationalize everything and encourage the weirdo extremists out on the Left and Right by giving them an audience. They just confuse and alienate us guys in the Centre."So, just who does the media serve, if everybody is pissed off at them?
Cheers
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