Opportunity to update the CC-150 fleet?

[PuckChaser]

I believe the air force's plan is fighter first, refueled second just because of this issue, need to know what they need to fuel the future fighter.

That's Treasury Board/Government of Canada's plan. There's not enough money or political will to do 2 major purchases like that in short order.

 

[dapaterson]

You may wish to consult the investment plan before making pronouncements.

Future Fighter

Anticipated Timeline (Fiscal Year)
Completed Start Options Analysis
Completed Start Definition
2022/2023 Start Implementation
2025/2026 Initial Delivery
2031/2032 Final Delivery

Strategic Tanker Transport Capability

Anticipated Timeline (Fiscal Year)
Completed Start Options Analysis
2022/2023 Start Definition
2025/2026 Start Implementation
2028/2029 Initial Delivery
2030/2031 Final Delivery

 

[PuckChaser]

How often have we seen those dates shift? I have 0 confidence PSPC/TB/DND will adhere to those timelines and be able to deliver 2 capital aircraft projects simultaneously.

 

[MilEME09]

How often have we seen those dates shift? I have 0 confidence PSPC/TB/DND will adhere to those timelines and be able to deliver 2 capital aircraft projects simultaneously.

Not to mention CSC is suppose to hit the water at that time, among other projects, the 2020's is suppose to delivery a lot of projects across the board, after a pandemic I have my doubts we will get any unless it means major jobs

 

[suffolkowner]

some parts planes for us to pick up cheap

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/36304/iran-air-is-selling-off-part-of-its-fleet-of-vintage-western-airliners

 

[dapaterson]

Mercedes Stephenson is reporting that the project is moving forward.

https://twitter.com/MercedesGlobal/status/1339697779002773509?s=19

Background from the last budget:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/reports-publications/proactive-disclosure/supplementary-budget-b-2019-2020/other-issues/procurement-air.html#toc4

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Sigh. 

There you go again with your "knowledge", your "research" and your "facts".

What's next?  First hand "experience" of the procurement process?

;D

 

[lenaitch]

There should be two each in cold Lake, Bagotville and Trenton to support arctic intercept response.  I'm not convinced the tanker Hercs are fast or long-legged enough for an adequate tactical response.  It's our arctic, we shouldn't have to rely on US for fuel.  At the very least two in Winnipeg (split the east-west distance).

 

[dapaterson]

No tanker Hercs.

 

[kev994]

There should be two each in cold Lake, Bagotville and Trenton to support arctic intercept response.  I'm not convinced the tanker Hercs are fast or long-legged enough for an adequate tactical response.  It's our arctic, we shouldn't have to rely on US for fuel.  At the very least two in Winnipeg (split the east-west distance).

There are advantages of the Herc; shorter runway for one. You can fuel it and send it back up rather quickly. You can send it to a short runway and offload a bunch of army dudes...
It’s pretty long legged but slow compared to a fighter, but with any tanker the further you go the less you can give away.

Edit: I should note that the herc is a tactical tanker, Polaris is a strategic tanker. Different purposes. If you’re doing it right you wouldn’t need a herc to go faster.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Mercedes Stephenson is reporting that the project is moving forward.

https://twitter.com/MercedesGlobal/status/1339697779002773509?s=19

Background from the last budget:
https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/reports-publications/proactive-disclosure/supplementary-budget-b-2019-2020/other-issues/procurement-air.html#toc4

I think our biggest challenge right now, in implementing SSE, is the lack of staff-power in the procurement shops to push all those files.  We have a finite number of people that can generate a finite amount of work.  All the files are important but require a significant amount of staff-power.  Because it is going forward and that it is approved in the budget doesn't mean it won't stall at some point in the process (not because we don't want/don't have the money to buy the equipment but because we lack the people to push the ball forward). I believe CGAI (Jeffrey Collins) and Doug Dempster wrote about this.

 

[Good2Golf]

There should be two each in cold Lake, Bagotville and Trenton to support arctic intercept response.  I'm not convinced the tanker Hercs are fast or long-legged enough for an adequate tactical response.  It's our arctic, we shouldn't have to rely on US for fuel.  At the very least two in Winnipeg (split the east-west distance).

Ahhh, the Canada-only CADIZ which isn’t part of NORAD AOR.........oh, wait....

 

[kev994]

737 Max should be having a fire sale any time now...

 

[PuckChaser]

Realistically there's only 2 bidders: Boeing KC-46A and Airbus A330 MRTT. The Airbus seems to be able to hold far more pax when it's configured that way and Boeing is struggling with multiple issues: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/03/31/air-forces-troubled-kc-46-tanker-has-new-problem-leaking-fuel.html

 

[suffolkowner]

I think our biggest challenge right now, in implementing SSE, is the lack of staff-power in the procurement shops to push all those files.  We have a finite number of people that can generate a finite amount of work.  All the files are important but require a significant amount of staff-power.  Because it is going forward and that it is approved in the budget doesn't mean it won't stall at some point in the process (not because we don't want/don't have the money to buy the equipment but because we lack the people to push the ball forward). I believe CGAI (Jeffrey Collins) and Doug Dempster wrote about this.

From all the reports over the last couple of years it's possible that the Polaris fleet is not giving us the option of time to work the file.

 

[lenaitch]

Realistically there's only 2 bidders: Boeing KC-46A and Airbus A330 MRTT. The Airbus seems to be able to hold far more pax when it's configured that way and Boeing is struggling with multiple issues: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/03/31/air-forces-troubled-kc-46-tanker-has-new-problem-leaking-fuel.html

Ah, buying new.  I was thinking more relieving a struggling airline of their some of their fleet and retro-fitting.  It seems to be our way.

 

[suffolkowner]

Ah, buying new.  I was thinking more relieving a struggling airline of their some of their fleet and retro-fitting.  It seems to be our way.

The KC-46 is a wide body 767, I would think if anyone was trying to get rid of some planes they would be the 737's. Can the 737's be converted? Would it be beneficial?

 

[dapaterson]

Ah, buying new.  I was thinking more relieving a struggling airline of their some of their fleet and retro-fitting.  It seems to be our way.

The KC-46 is a wide body 767, I would think if anyone was trying to get rid of some planes they would be the 737's. Can the 737's be converted? Would it be beneficial?

For the in-service A310sCC150s, the air to air refit was done in conjunction with the Germans, more than a decade after we took them off the hands of WardairCanadian Airlines.  If we had been going alone, the NRE cost likely would have been prohibitive.  To my knowledge, no one is flying a 737 tanker.  Airlines will be scrapping their older, less fuel efficient 737s anyways, and keeping the more modern aircraft, so we couldn't even do a "P-8 on the cheap" conversion there.  (The 737 is actually a family of a/c, with multiple models produced over decades.  Boeing fights hard to keep them under a single type to make pilot training cheaper... the MAX was the logical extension of that philosophy)

Buying off the line, keeping Canadianizing to the roundel and possibly a few safety stickers in French, and keeping hardware in step with other users is a great way to get more affordable equipment with maintenance support in the long term.  Orphan fleets are costly to maintain and sustain... and you can end up beholden to a single supplier who never, ever, every delivers your CP-140s hypothetical aircraft on time from their R&O line.

 

[dimsum]

Realistically there's only 2 bidders: Boeing KC-46A and Airbus A330 MRTT. The Airbus seems to be able to hold far more pax when it's configured that way and Boeing is struggling with multiple issues: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/03/31/air-forces-troubled-kc-46-tanker-has-new-problem-leaking-fuel.html

So, there's an aircraft flown operationally by multiple allied nations, and one that's barely sorting itself out. 

 

[PuckChaser]

Ah, buying new.  I was thinking more relieving a struggling airline of their some of their fleet and retro-fitting.  It seems to be our way.

Airbus actually builds the A330 MRTT as a Civilian A330-200, and then it's converted in Spain for Military use. Spanish Air Force was planning on procuring some from Iberia Airlines and converting them, probably a decent cost savings there without much of a capability loss other than the flight hours already on the airframe especially if we want to capitalize on the downturn in the airlines due to COVID.