OPFOR weapons

[421 EME]

Looking for some feedback into if OPFOR on Ex here in Canada should be using weapons other then the C7 family. My reason for asking is we are all so familiar to the the sound of the C7 being fired with blanks that we tend not to react to it very well to it.

Maybe if we use a different weapon with blanks this will increase the training value for our troops.

Any feedback, good or bad will help.

 

[dapaterson]

There are limited holdings of other weapons available for soem trainign activities.

That being said, it is easier to support an exercise when there is less concern about the natures of ammunition being used.  Stocks of non NATO standard ammunition, cartridge or blank, are not held everywhere; we would have to add yet another item to hold at ammo depots.

For CMTC this might be an option; spreadign it out to every base would be a significant increase in cost and complexity for limited return.

My 2c.

 

[421 EME]

OK lets say we bring the FN C1A1 out of storage in small numbers for OPFOR use. We use the C2A1 30rd mags to give it the same capacity as the AK-47 (the weapon of choice by are friends in the sandbox).
For ammo its just 7.62mm blank, and we have lots of that in the system and when that blank is fired it sounds different then the C7 with blanks.
The WES system should be able to mount on it.
The one thing it cant do is automatic fire like the AK-47.

 

[dapaterson]

(1) I don't think we bought kit calibrated for the FN C1 when we bought WES. 

(2) I believe we've disposed of the FNs, as maintaining them in preservation was expensive and did not meet any future requirement.

(3)  As a gun plumber, you should know about the FNC1A1 matchstick automatic technique 

 

[421 EME]

(1) No we did not buy the WES calibration kit for the FN C1,but that's something that can be worked around.

(2) There are still small numbers of FN C1's being held by the CF and spare parts for them.

(3) I have never done the matchstick technique on the FN C1 nor would I re comend it to any one. When a weapon is made to work other than what it was made to do, bad things can happen.

 

[Danjanou]

What is this matchstick you speak of? Never heard of it. >

A relative and former troopie of mine who has gone on to bigger and better things since I dumped his 17 year old but in a firing position on the Lawfield Corridor with a C2 and a pile of mags and said cover our withdrawal FNG, told me his last pre deployment foreign weapons fam training included the FN. 

I really feel old. 

 

[chrisf]

Adapting the WES system to the C1 would be no problem. As of right now, any weapon can be programed to be any other weapon, example, you can have a C7 rifleman who's weapon has the effects of a SPG-9 if you want.

That being said, as last spring when I was attached to OPFOR in Wainwright for a Maple Guardian exercise, the weapons situation was thus...

They were using standard Canadian small arms, and they had a variety of soviet weapons which were deactivated (And of course purchased for a ridiculous price, thus is the nature of government suppliers) for use in weapons caches  and such.

At the time, they were looking at purchasing Ak-47 style weapons, however, as they couldn't obtain 7.62 soviet blank, they had to purchase said Ak-47 style weapons chambered for 5.56mm round, if I remember correctly, they were awaiting some sort of certification before purchase.

 

[421 EME]

I cant comment on the matchstick thing, because I dont know how its done.

The FN C1A1 was taken out of mainstream service with the CF once the C7 came into service and yes a large number where disposed of (this brings a tears to my gun plumbers eye's because it was and still is a great rifle). But there are still some in service with the CF. I still have parts for the FN in my weapons shop and so do many other shops across the forces. We can still order some parts to do repairs. I have all the CFTO's for the FN still to help me with any repairs that I need to do.
The FN C1A1 was one of the last rifles where weapons techs did real repairs and not just replaced the bad parts. Something goes bad in the C7A2, just replace the parts, something goes bad in the FN you have to hand fit the replacement part to the weapon. Hand fitting parts is a skill that is slowly disappearing in our trade, even my hand fitting skills are out of pratice.

 

[dapaterson]

Adapting the WES system to the C1 would be no problem. As of right now, any weapon can be programed to be any other weapon, example, you can have a C7 rifleman who's weapon has the effects of a SPG-9 if you want.

It's not a programming issue, but rather (1) getting clamps and gear to attah the kit to an FN vice a C7; (2) aligning the laser properly; and (3) an FN blank has more kick than a C7 blank (even more kick than a C7 live).

At the time, they were looking at purchasing Ak-47 style weapons, however, as they couldn't obtain 7.62 soviet blank, they had to purchase said Ak-47 style weapons chambered for 5.56mm round, if I remember correctly, they were awaiting some sort of certification before purchase.

Acquiring firearms for the military is an involved process, to be sure...

 

[Bzzliteyr]

I have seen simunition ak47 upper receivers for the C7/C8.  This adds some realism but only in the simunition world.

 

[421 EME]

Now someone correct me if I am wrong, but the WES laser transmitter that is used on the C7, C9 and C6 all have the same clamp on them so as to mount them on the barrel just forward of the front sights on all 3 of these weapons. If that is so, then they should be able to mount it on the barrel of the FN just forward of the front sight also.

YES / NO / KICK TO THE GROIN

 

[Greymatters]

What is this matchstick you speak of? Never heard of it. > 

One of the old 'forbidden' topics - everybody was shown how to do it, but you were never supposed to admit doing it...

 

[chrisf]

It's not a programming issue, but rather (1) getting clamps and gear to attah the kit to an FN vice a C7; (2) aligning the laser properly; and (3) an FN blank has more kick than a C7 blank (even more kick than a C7 live).

It's not that hard to buy/fabricate new clamps.

Regardless, the process is underway to buy new weapons.

 

[1feral1]

(1) No we did not buy the WES calibration kit for the FN C1,but that's something that can be worked around.

(2) There are still small numbers of FN C1's being held by the CF and spare parts for them.

(3) I have never done the matchstick technique on the FN C1 nor would I re comend it to any one. When a weapon is made to work other than what it was made to do, bad things can happen.

The matchstick/tinfoil ball method is unreliable and dangerous.

There was the C1A1D, and in the final yrs of these wpns in catalogue, they ended up in Army Units.

At days end, the C1A1/L1A1 was a selective fire rifle, with the CF/UK/NZ and Aussies opting out for S and R only. The C1 was easily converted to automatic with C2 parts, hence the C1A1D, originally to be used by Navy. No big deal.

In Australia we use Romanian AKMs (not battlefield PUs). Plenty of legit Eastern Bloc suppliers out there with rifles/LARs c/wBFAs and 7.62mm M43 blanks for trg, etc. Realistic and decent spare parts packages and armourer's tools such as HS gauges and PBG's etc. IMHO the CF should utilise this method of trg.

EMEIs (CFTOs) are in use for maintainance of this equipment.  A small national fleet of these weapons (say 250 AKMs, and 40 RPKs) for trg use is within ecomomic reason, and easy to maintain, but try telling that to the bean counters, and those that think they know what they are talking about  :nod:.

OWDU

 

[dapaterson]

Getting a sm,all training fleet and maintaining it in one location = easy.  Doing the CF thing where we hand out a dozen here, a dozen there, don't provide tech with adequate training, don't provide ammo in the right natures in the right place, and don't keep enough together to provide any good, solid collective training is a waste of resources.

CMTC OPFOR with +/- 300 AK family weapons?  ASU Wx techs can get up to speed, all the ammo in Wx = good idea.

Handing a few over to everyone and his brother because trhey want some look-cool toys to show off? = Usual CF method  (and Not a Good Idea)

 

[1feral1]

Perhaps these then should be kept at some main trg centres in the east and west, and not issued out to any units who want a quality En force for an exercise.

Call it a Trg Eqpt Pool.

I am not expert in this field, but it sounds easy, and thats how its done here, and it works.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[dapaterson]

Oh, I like that concept, and maybe now we'd be ready to do it here... but too often everyone wants the new toys, so no one gets enough to do anything useful.

Besides, where can we find AK PAMs in French?
>

 

[chrisf]

Getting a sm,all training fleet and maintaining it in one location = easy.  Doing the CF thing where we hand out a dozen here, a dozen there, don't provide tech with adequate training, don't provide ammo in the right natures in the right place, and don't keep enough together to provide any good, solid collective training is a waste of resources.

CMTC OPFOR with +/- 300 AK family weapons?  ASU Wx techs can get up to speed, all the ammo in Wx = good idea.

Ammo shouldn't be a problem, as I said, they were purchasing an AK-47 varient in 5.56mm, with the specific intent of using C79 blank in it.

 

[EMEGUY421]

The Chinese make an AK variant in 5.56MM for export into civilian sales. Shot one, same as the full bore variant.  CMTC should have a stock of these for OPFOR and famil requirements. Some units hold dewat samples for int and trg for deployments, but not all units are lucky. The FNC1A1 would be a good alternative, and the WES kit will work with it, after all, we use it on the C6, no? 7.62MM blanks are in the system, even if we would have to delink them,( don't tell the ammo techs!!!). Food for thought.

 

[chrisf]

I think the varient they were looking at was Ukrainian or Polish or somthing to that effect....

OPFOR already has plenty of DEWAT AKs and RPGs, but no firing versions (As of last year at least)