• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

On the Toxicity of the ‘Warrior’ Ethos

dimsum

Army.ca Legend
Mentor
Reaction score
5,510
Points
1,260
I don't hold the belief that the measurement of "impressiveness" is by bling. While I can't speak to the effectiveness of Gen Lawson during this tenure as CDS (or from any of his service as a GOFO), he did seem like a better than average major when he was stationed at Baden-Soellingen before we closed it. There weren't a lot of people wearing more than one or two medals back in those days and I suspect that he received that SSM (with NATO bar) on the same parade that I received mine (along with most of the base - the NATO bar having only been authorized shortly before closing out our front-line Cold War bases). An air force general (pilot) with only three gongs was about right for the time and place (if his fighter time had been exclusively NORAD, he wouldn't have that many). I would say that a couple of tours flying fighters in Europe (including Starfighters) more than qualifies him as a warfighter.
There was an entire generation of Aurora folks who only ever got a CD. They were definitely deployed on missions.
 

daftandbarmy

Army.ca Relic
Reaction score
14,737
Points
1,160
And now, an article in the CMJ ;)


Is the Term “Warrior” Suitable for the Canadian Armed Forces?
by T. Kent Gregory


Chief Petty Officer 1st Class (Retired) Thomas Kent Gregory, CD, served in the Royal Canadian Navy for 37 years as a Finance Clerk and a Resource Management Support Clerk, before retiring in September 2021 as the Base Chief Petty Officer of Canadian Forces Base Halifax. Immediately following his retirement, he joined the Professional Concepts and Leadership Development team at the Canadian Defence Academy.

Contributions by: Lieutenant Colonel (Ret) William G. Cummings, CD; Captain Lee T. Jarratt, CD; Guilherme Martinelli.

There is an ongoing debate whether or not all Canadian Armed Forces (CAF) members can be described as warriors, given that they are first and foremost members of the profession of arms. There are historical, positive and invigorating aspects of being a warrior, and this may resonate more with certain sub-groups within the CAF. However, a strong argument can be made that this term does not define all CAF members today because they are part of a modern military profession with a wide range of occupations and ranks that perform a wide spectrum of tasks from institutional staff-work to war fighting. In addition, a case could be made that warrior identify causes more harm to the military than good.

Although a warrior is defined primarily as a person engaged or experienced in warfareFootnote 1, it is also more popularly understood as a person who demonstrates great vigour, courage, or aggressiveness, as in business or athletics. Because it has this second, much broader and therefore accessible definition outside the field of military conflict, it has been adopted by many different groups, such as first responders, to suit their particular circumstances. It has also been widely used in popular media in varying contexts. As well, other military forces view and experience it differently.

If the term warrior is to make its way into official doctrine in a positive manner, it needs to be critically defined, and these gaps of perception will need to be bridged, so it becomes an encompassing term that resonates with everyone who wears the Canadian military uniform.

 

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
2,567
Points
1,040
This is such a circle jerk of stupidity; warriors are individuals who fought for personal glory in a common gaggle. Throughout history they lost to professional soldiers.

Equipment support, logistics are all critical to the effectiveness of a military, but I'm not applying warrior ethos while fighting through the bullshit bureaucracy required in cubicle land (and primarily fueled by coffee and spite for the process). If the 'warriors' want to charge into battle, fill their boots I guess, but lets not lie to people and somehow 'sexy up' critical non-warrior support tasks being done at 1st, 2nd and 3rd lines.

I'm not in combat arms, but I'm guessing going full 'Leeroy Jenkins' in a squad attack isn't effective either, so they need to act as a team of professionals, not a group of individuals.
 

rmc_wannabe

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
2,821
Points
1,310
This is such a circle jerk of stupidity; warriors are individuals who fought for personal glory in a common gaggle. Throughout history they lost to professional soldiers.

Equipment support, logistics are all critical to the effectiveness of a military, but I'm not applying warrior ethos while fighting through the bullshit bureaucracy required in cubicle land (and primarily fueled by coffee and spite for the process). If the 'warriors' want to charge into battle, fill their boots I guess, but lets not lie to people and somehow 'sexy up' critical non-warrior support tasks being done at 1st, 2nd and 3rd lines.

I'm not in combat arms, but I'm guessing going full 'Leeroy Jenkins' in a squad attack isn't effective either, so they need to act as a team of professionals, not a group of individuals.
A lot of it comes down to bravado.

Operators are superior to Supports

Infantry over Armoured

Combat Arms over Combat Support

Combat Support over HQ/CSS

Army over RCAF/RCN

CAF over DND

etc.... etc... etc...

We do this to ourselves and wonder why no one enjoys being called a "Warrior" sarcastically as they sit behind a screen doing pay audits.

I guarantee a professional soldier is less likely to want to be Charlie Team taking the trench if they aren't getting paid for it.
 

Furniture

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,862
Points
1,110
This is such a circle jerk of stupidity; warriors are individuals who fought for personal glory in a common gaggle. Throughout history they lost to professional soldiers.

Equipment support, logistics are all critical to the effectiveness of a military, but I'm not applying warrior ethos while fighting through the bullshit bureaucracy required in cubicle land (and primarily fueled by coffee and spite for the process). If the 'warriors' want to charge into battle, fill their boots I guess, but lets not lie to people and somehow 'sexy up' critical non-warrior support tasks being done at 1st, 2nd and 3rd lines.

I'm not in combat arms, but I'm guessing going full 'Leeroy Jenkins' in a squad attack isn't effective either, so they need to act as a team of professionals, not a group of individuals.
100%

If the door kickers want to style themselves as warriors, have at it. I'm not a warrior, I'm a professional sailor. My job is to collect data, analyze it, and provide commanders with value-added forecasts that help them make the best use of the weather.

One of the biggest disservices we do to our people when recruiting in my occupation is fill their heads with visions of "proper action and shit", when the job is mostly sitting at a desk drinking coffee. That desk might be in a SEV on the back of a truck or bobbing around in the chart room in a ship, but the job is pretty much always at a desk.
 

Halifax Tar

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
3,397
Points
1,260
100%

If the door kickers want to style themselves as warriors, have at it. I'm not a warrior, I'm a professional sailor. My job is to collect data, analyze it, and provide commanders with value-added forecasts that help them make the best use of the weather.

One of the biggest disservices we do to our people when recruiting in my occupation is fill their heads with visions of "proper action and shit", when the job is mostly sitting at a desk drinking coffee. That desk might be in a SEV on the back of a truck or bobbing around in the chart room in a ship, but the job is pretty much always at a desk.

I see youve never been to 2 Svc Bn before. They out Army the Army lol
 

Furniture

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,862
Points
1,110
One point I would add to your post is an internal inferiority complex in the CSS branches and trades. We do it to ourselves to a certain extent.
I had typed that in my reply initially but decided I didn't want to seem like I was attacking the CSS world. The "soldier first" mentality, combined with an inferiority complex is a bad combination.

That sort of thinking had my occupation requiring SQ to attend PLQ...
 

daftandbarmy

Army.ca Relic
Reaction score
14,737
Points
1,160
100%

If the door kickers want to style themselves as warriors, have at it. I'm not a warrior, I'm a professional sailor. My job is to collect data, analyze it, and provide commanders with value-added forecasts that help them make the best use of the weather.

One of the biggest disservices we do to our people when recruiting in my occupation is fill their heads with visions of "proper action and shit", when the job is mostly sitting at a desk drinking coffee. That desk might be in a SEV on the back of a truck or bobbing around in the chart room in a ship, but the job is pretty much always at a desk.

When planning big (for us) operations I learned - the hard way - to put it all together and then ask the CQ if it was possible ;)
 

Halifax Tar

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
3,397
Points
1,260
I had typed that in my reply initially but decided I didn't want to seem like I was attacking the CSS world. The "soldier first" mentality, combined with an inferiority complex is a bad combination.

That sort of thinking had my occupation requiring SQ to attend PLQ...

Mine as well, for those in CA uniforms.

When I taught QL3 I used to really have to temper some expectations of what my trade does. I love my job. I will tell you that we are the center of the CAF wheel, all spokes branch off us. I am also biased. BUT Clearing trenches, kicking down doors and single handedly holding Kapyong we are not.
 

Furniture

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,862
Points
1,110
Mine as well, for those in CA uniforms.

When I taught QL3 I used to really have to temper some expectations of what my trade does. I love my job. I will tell you that we are the center of the CAF wheel, all spokes branch off us. BUT Clearing trenches, kicking down doors and single handedly holding Kapyong we are not.
We required it of all Met Techs, regardless of DEU... It has gone away, but it was a hangover from the Afghanistan days when we were attached to gun troops moving all over Kandahar province.

I've long argued that the best Met Tech is someone smart enough to do the job, and lazy enough to appreciate how good we have it. Cbt Arms remusters tend to do quite well, because they have gotten the door kicking out of their system already and appreciate sitting at a desk drinking coffee.
 

Halifax Tar

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
3,397
Points
1,260
We required it of all Met Techs, regardless of DEU... It has gone away, but it was a hangover from the Afghanistan days when we were attached to gun troops moving all over Kandahar province.

I've long argued that the best Met Tech is someone smart enough to do the job, and lazy enough to appreciate how good we have it. Cbt Arms remusters tend to do quite well, because they have gotten the door kicking out of their system already and appreciate sitting at a desk drinking coffee.

You guys only had RCAF DEU until recently didn't you ?

I find remusters can be very hit or miss. It really depends on the individual. I have met a few who couldnt understand this isnt the CBT Arms. We are adults and have adult jobs and expect production more than yelling and licking aluminum pots and melmac plates.
 

Furniture

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
1,862
Points
1,110
You guys only had RCAF DEU until recently didn't you ?

I find remusters can be very hit or miss. It really depends on the individual. I have met a few who couldnt understand this isnt the CBT Arms. We are adults and have adult jobs and expect production more than yelling and licking aluminum pots and melmac plates.
We were all RCAF until 2013, and it was only Feb this year that those of us who wanted to switch out of RCAF DEU were given the opportunity. I think only four of us changed, and we all went RCN.
 
Top