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Oh I totally agree that for combat arms young is the way to go but air force and navy trades I feel being an older recruit has its advantages as well.
Older Recruits?
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mdh
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I think we all agree that younger recruits are best suited to the rigours of the combat arms (at least from a physical standpoint). But I think there's a bigger question here.
The average age of a CF recruit was actually closer to 25 than 23 in 2003. If that trend continues - which is likely - then the CF could be faced with serious manpower issues within ten years when demographic pressures, combined with the usual retention/retirement issues, private sector competition, etc., impacts directly on unit strength, leadership, and potentially, unit cohesion.
I don't think there is any "solution" to the problem, but we may well be seeing a new phenomenon in our midst - "a graying military" which stands in stark contrast to the more traditional youthful militaries of the past.
This may not be a bad thing in some respects. Recently there was a post here on this forum from a member of the British REME (if memory serves) asking about transferring to the CF because he was due for mandatory retirement at 40. Considering the substantial investment in that soldier - along with the experience - I'm not sure those kinds of policies make much sense any more.
The average age of a CF recruit was actually closer to 25 than 23 in 2003. If that trend continues - which is likely - then the CF could be faced with serious manpower issues within ten years when demographic pressures, combined with the usual retention/retirement issues, private sector competition, etc., impacts directly on unit strength, leadership, and potentially, unit cohesion.
I don't think there is any "solution" to the problem, but we may well be seeing a new phenomenon in our midst - "a graying military" which stands in stark contrast to the more traditional youthful militaries of the past.
This may not be a bad thing in some respects. Recently there was a post here on this forum from a member of the British REME (if memory serves) asking about transferring to the CF because he was due for mandatory retirement at 40. Considering the substantial investment in that soldier - along with the experience - I'm not sure those kinds of policies make much sense any more.
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I may be speaking out of my ass, but I will be enlisting under the DEO program for the January BOTC course. I am 31. I didn't think I was old until I started reading some of these posts.
<i>In my opinion older recruits entering the system is generally not a healthy thing. I spent half my time in at one end or the other of the fighting machine. This was not an issue at the pointy end but seems to be a bit more prevalent in the not so pointy end. In peace time the rigours of hard tactical training (exercises with combat arms and not the "hard" St-Jean 7 days in the field) can be very taxing on soldiers. The younger and more fit you are the easier it is to carry on after 4-5 days of little sleep and comfort. After 6-7 days the body begins to break down. A young hard charger can make it through these gruelling trials whereas the older privates and cpls have a bit harder go.</i>
May I ask a retorical quation? Is it a question of age or fitness? I would suspect the latter. I am sure that "grizzled" veterans can still take the young ones to school.
I know it will be hard. I am preparing for that. Don't judge me because I have a "couple of grey hairs." Hopefully I'll be able to offer something as well.
<i>In my opinion older recruits entering the system is generally not a healthy thing. I spent half my time in at one end or the other of the fighting machine. This was not an issue at the pointy end but seems to be a bit more prevalent in the not so pointy end. In peace time the rigours of hard tactical training (exercises with combat arms and not the "hard" St-Jean 7 days in the field) can be very taxing on soldiers. The younger and more fit you are the easier it is to carry on after 4-5 days of little sleep and comfort. After 6-7 days the body begins to break down. A young hard charger can make it through these gruelling trials whereas the older privates and cpls have a bit harder go.</i>
May I ask a retorical quation? Is it a question of age or fitness? I would suspect the latter. I am sure that "grizzled" veterans can still take the young ones to school.
I know it will be hard. I am preparing for that. Don't judge me because I have a "couple of grey hairs." Hopefully I'll be able to offer something as well.
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Admittedly, the combat arms (particularly the inf) is a young man's game. However the question is more general. And I say that older recruits are easier to train (however there is a proviso, with about age 40 being pretty well top out for a recruit) because of their life experiences and maturity.
The only thing younger recruits have is fitness (and this is not always true). However, it is like the turtle and the hare. Younger recruits are good a spurts, but haven't leaned to pace themselves. Older recruits tend to have more stamina. So at the end of 4-5 days the older ones are still going, while the youngrer ones are dragging ass. And yes I have seen it countless times.
They also tend to be better listeners, and are willing to help out others, or seek help themselves. In other words they also have humility. If you have a group of recruits given a task, and leave it up to them, 9 times out of 10 the older recruit will a imformally step up and take charge.
However there are exceptions to ever rule, and these are very general statements.
Also, so I have a point of reference, what is considered older?
The only thing younger recruits have is fitness (and this is not always true). However, it is like the turtle and the hare. Younger recruits are good a spurts, but haven't leaned to pace themselves. Older recruits tend to have more stamina. So at the end of 4-5 days the older ones are still going, while the youngrer ones are dragging ass. And yes I have seen it countless times.
They also tend to be better listeners, and are willing to help out others, or seek help themselves. In other words they also have humility. If you have a group of recruits given a task, and leave it up to them, 9 times out of 10 the older recruit will a imformally step up and take charge.
However there are exceptions to ever rule, and these are very general statements.
Also, so I have a point of reference, what is considered older?
mdh
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Hello Bograt,
I think Padraig was really focusing on combat arms - which is the most physically demanding of the Army MOCs - and there's no doubt that biological deterioration is destiny for all of us.
But while I agree with his basic premiss, I think it's a more complicated. While it's true that wars are heck, even the US military has acknowledged that its combat troops in Iraq require more than mere youth/ physical fitness, they need maturity and judgment in dealing with local populations in an alien culture - something older troops are far better able to manage.
As for the Air Force, congratulations on being selected. Personally, I think 31 is a great age to start pilot training.
I got my private licence in my late 30s, and at our flight school the best student pilots tended to be older guys. It's interesting, though, because this forum debate about recruits parallels the same debate you often hear in aviation: who makes a better pilot? the younger or older student? - Well, in my estimation younger guys may have better reflexes (maybe), but older guys have maturity and judgment -two elements that are critical in the safe operation of an aircraft in an environment where there is very little room for error.
Although my demented scribblling may not have succeeded, I wanted to keep this discussion at a more general level about manpower issues.
I think that fundamentally it doesn't matter what age (within reason) you are - as long as the CF gives you the opportunity, and you meet the training standards (and they are not altered for the sake of expendiency), then age is only one factor in producing good personnel - even in the combat arms.
Cheers
mdh
I think Padraig was really focusing on combat arms - which is the most physically demanding of the Army MOCs - and there's no doubt that biological deterioration is destiny for all of us.
But while I agree with his basic premiss, I think it's a more complicated. While it's true that wars are heck, even the US military has acknowledged that its combat troops in Iraq require more than mere youth/ physical fitness, they need maturity and judgment in dealing with local populations in an alien culture - something older troops are far better able to manage.
As for the Air Force, congratulations on being selected. Personally, I think 31 is a great age to start pilot training.
I got my private licence in my late 30s, and at our flight school the best student pilots tended to be older guys. It's interesting, though, because this forum debate about recruits parallels the same debate you often hear in aviation: who makes a better pilot? the younger or older student? - Well, in my estimation younger guys may have better reflexes (maybe), but older guys have maturity and judgment -two elements that are critical in the safe operation of an aircraft in an environment where there is very little room for error.
Although my demented scribblling may not have succeeded, I wanted to keep this discussion at a more general level about manpower issues.
I think that fundamentally it doesn't matter what age (within reason) you are - as long as the CF gives you the opportunity, and you meet the training standards (and they are not altered for the sake of expendiency), then age is only one factor in producing good personnel - even in the combat arms.
Cheers
mdh
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The grizzled veterans can indeed take some of the hard chargers to school but only because they were young hard chargers themselves at one stage. A 40 something WO with a full combat load pulling away from you can be serious motivation indeed. I remember being young, full of piss and vinegar and absolutely floored at the fitness levels of the training NCO's!! Back in the day...some of those hard mothers just about killed me :crybaby: Some of them today in their 60's are still sharp looking Royals! :-*
The one point about age is simple...recovery time! Days to weeks to months to "I remember back in (insert date) when I permanently screwed my (insert bodypart). :skull:
Tough to zero efficiently with bi-focals too!
The one point about age is simple...recovery time! Days to weeks to months to "I remember back in (insert date) when I permanently screwed my (insert bodypart). :skull:
Tough to zero efficiently with bi-focals too!
Bert
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Everyone has made good points and you can look at the topic from various
perspectives.
At the beginning, the thread didn't state whether the age issue was related only to
the combat arms or the support trades, or whether its common to all elements.
Age, attitude, fitness, and knowledge all play key roles in all MOCs and elements.
Looking at it from an overall point of view, its difficult to compare the combat arms like
infantry in the Army to a support trade like an aviation systems technician in the
Air Force. The training focus, training schedules, exercises, deployment readiness
focus, are very much different. Physical fitness is important eveywhere but more
so in the combat arms and they train for it. The aviation systems technician as
an example may train more on flight-line readiness, rapid deployments and load-outs,
emergency repairs, or fire and rescue procedures. Age is not a critical issue in
the support MOCs but I don't have experience in the combat arms to say otherwise.
Ability through knowledge, physical aptitude, and atitude is essential.
perspectives.
At the beginning, the thread didn't state whether the age issue was related only to
the combat arms or the support trades, or whether its common to all elements.
Age, attitude, fitness, and knowledge all play key roles in all MOCs and elements.
Looking at it from an overall point of view, its difficult to compare the combat arms like
infantry in the Army to a support trade like an aviation systems technician in the
Air Force. The training focus, training schedules, exercises, deployment readiness
focus, are very much different. Physical fitness is important eveywhere but more
so in the combat arms and they train for it. The aviation systems technician as
an example may train more on flight-line readiness, rapid deployments and load-outs,
emergency repairs, or fire and rescue procedures. Age is not a critical issue in
the support MOCs but I don't have experience in the combat arms to say otherwise.
Ability through knowledge, physical aptitude, and atitude is essential.
C
CF104Starfighter
Guest
I really don't see why you guys have to be such dinks about this. I was simply providing an example and all of a sudden I'm told that my example or opinion doesn't count because I'm not a member of the CF? No offence, but this site is not very welcoming to "outisders". For all your "wisdom" and "veterinary status" you're not very warm to people interested in following in your path. I even said I was not trying to undermine you. Even though many (Most) of you probably won't care, I'm beginning to wonder whether or not I should continue posting on here, because it seems that whenever I give an opinion, example, or question, I'm told in kinder words to shut up because I'm 16 and not in the military.Ex-Dragoon said:
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CF104Starfighter said:
Hold on there junior! You are the one thats taken offence not us. Your sister is just in and yet you base your argument on her experience at the beginning of her career. Come on now man, most here have a few years in and I think have a few more experiences in this area then your sister and you using the basis of your ire. Had you bothered reading what others had said you would see opinions very from pro or against older recruits. No where did anyone say your opinion was not welcomed and no where did anyone bring up the fact you were not in the CF in this discussion. As for other discussions its up to you to figure out why you may have been told to do a search or whatever. As for having veterinary status can't say I do. I am a sailor I don't work on animals...hmm wait a minute, I wil have to get back to you on that one. CF104 I have one piece of advice for you, grow a thicker skin.
C
CF104Starfighter
Guest
Saying hold on there junior is exactly what I'm talking about. Are you illiterate? I already said that I've taken offence. Not only is my sister in, but my mom is also, and my dad is retired. And perhaps I'm just an army brat, but my parents have a bit more experience than you, or many of the people on this forum do. No, you did not say my opinion was not welcomed directly, but it's been implied. Lots. And I wasn't just basing this argument off of this thread. Sorry if I did not clarify that for you. I've never been told to do a search, and I really don't know where you got that from. I do have a thick skin, I just don't appreciate it when someone's giving me smart-ass, generalized replies when I don't deserve them. I understand that you've have problems with newer people before, but I really don't see what I've done to provoke you.Ex-Dragoon said:
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CF104Starfighter said:
Don't like to be called junior then don't call us dinks for some of us not agreeing with your views. If you read back carefully and I do suggest you read back, this discussion from all sides raised some good points. The points that were disagreed upon were brought up and for the most part settled. You coming in all defensive does little to help your point. If anything it reinforces my opinion why I prefer older recruits to younger because most (not all) act the exact same way as you have. You know how many times I (and I am sure many other people here) have watched their senior NCOs gleefully rub their hands when a young recruit makes comments like "well when I was in cadets" "My brother/sister who is in ***** said its done this way". I have yet to hear someone older say that. Calling me illiterate? Well you better make sure your grammar, punctuation and spelling is perfect from here on out. Ironic considering awhile back because you brought up the fact that someone made some spelling and punctuation mistakes.
I have noticed when an argument goes bad for you the "I am only 16" trump comes up. Sorry that will only cut you so much slack and you have overplayed it.
My father, grandfather and a whole slew of uncles are handymen. I would never dare to presume to argue with someone about putting something together or repairing something based on my family members experience which is what you have done bringing up yours. Again you are welcome to your opinion but its best if its your opinion based on your experiences and not those of your parents or sister. You have mentioned you are a lifeguard in previous threads, you would not like me to tell you how to do your job based upon what I have read or what other lifeguards have told me now would you? Picture being in a lifeguard forum and have someone come across like you have.
why you may have been told to do a search or whatever You might have not have been told to do a search if you look carefully I enclosed a "or whatever" as well. Look way back and you will see people like Infanteer and several others giving you advice. Maybe you should take it, read what you have posted over the past and determine why you received the reaction you did. Read through the FAQs and guidelines for the forum.
S
Sigs
Guest
I am at the school teaching to Sigs, so far i've noticed that if they are 18 or 35 we have to treat them the same, i.e. take them by the hand because they have no clue. Some older ones do have attitude, but at the same time they do bring mostly good behaviour. The big thing that I've noticed is that the problems are a hell of a lot bigger because most of them are married with kids. When I joined we were ALL too young to be married...especially have kids. I also noticed that the physical standard dropped big time...19 year olds can't keep up with 30 semi year olds.
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Sigs! I'm surprised to hear that the younger recruits are having a harder time at keeping up with the older recruits. Something must happen between what I assume to be CFSCE and here because it's our older recruits that are falling apart. Well, more than our young recruits.
I remember my old Seargent Major, if you were even on a 2 day chit for a sprained ankle he would tear you a part on parade, now it seems to be SOP to verify all the chits before PT in a more corporate manner.
The fear as a new private that was delivered from our old SSM was half the motivation in the "drive the body" attitude that most of us can still hang on to.
I remember my old Seargent Major, if you were even on a 2 day chit for a sprained ankle he would tear you a part on parade, now it seems to be SOP to verify all the chits before PT in a more corporate manner.
The fear as a new private that was delivered from our old SSM was half the motivation in the "drive the body" attitude that most of us can still hang on to.
G
Great Harveney
Guest
I'm a young Pte in the reserves and I notice i am they youngest in my unit (that i have seen).
I also find that not a lot of people want to join the military cause they tell me its too strict or that they don't want to ruin their body in the futare. I talk to friends who once wanted to join the military and they tell me that it wont help them in life and that they get this stereotypical image of that you have to be BIG and BUFF and tend to be not too bright.
Also the main thing, the discipline. You go to a school and you see that nobody has any. I wish i could see many of the people at my school go to a BIQ or even a BMQ and see what they do. >
Most young people try to coast threw life at this stage and cant be bothered to work for "the man".
P.S. also in the reserves over half of the young Pte's i do see are only there for the university funds or w/e you want to call them and say that they are gonna leave after university. :-\
GreatH
I also find that not a lot of people want to join the military cause they tell me its too strict or that they don't want to ruin their body in the futare. I talk to friends who once wanted to join the military and they tell me that it wont help them in life and that they get this stereotypical image of that you have to be BIG and BUFF and tend to be not too bright.
Also the main thing, the discipline. You go to a school and you see that nobody has any. I wish i could see many of the people at my school go to a BIQ or even a BMQ and see what they do. >
Most young people try to coast threw life at this stage and cant be bothered to work for "the man".
P.S. also in the reserves over half of the young Pte's i do see are only there for the university funds or w/e you want to call them and say that they are gonna leave after university. :-\
GreatH
Blindspot
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Great Harveney,
I had joined up when I was a shy, out of shape kid in high-school at about your age. I received scorn and ridicule from my peers. Even my friends believed their tours as youth camp counsellors was infinately more worthwhile. Some even referred to me as "baby-killer" and I recall that being particularily hurtful at the time. I can look back and probably attribute that kind of abuse and negativity to teenage jealousy. I mean what were they going to do during the summer: hang out at the 7-11 or at best, watch over kids and hit on female counsellors?
When I returned from my summer courses, I had changed immeasurably. My grades improved, I had moved to the top of my phys ed class, I understood the benefit of teamwork, I became more socially inclined and most importantly, I had developed a 'never give up' attitude. I indeed felt superior physically and mentally to those around me. It has always been my opinion since that there's no greater character builder than the armed forces as I watched my nephew go through the same changes. It was by far my greatest life defining experience.
I hope to return soon as an older recruit.
I had joined up when I was a shy, out of shape kid in high-school at about your age. I received scorn and ridicule from my peers. Even my friends believed their tours as youth camp counsellors was infinately more worthwhile. Some even referred to me as "baby-killer" and I recall that being particularily hurtful at the time. I can look back and probably attribute that kind of abuse and negativity to teenage jealousy. I mean what were they going to do during the summer: hang out at the 7-11 or at best, watch over kids and hit on female counsellors?
When I returned from my summer courses, I had changed immeasurably. My grades improved, I had moved to the top of my phys ed class, I understood the benefit of teamwork, I became more socially inclined and most importantly, I had developed a 'never give up' attitude. I indeed felt superior physically and mentally to those around me. It has always been my opinion since that there's no greater character builder than the armed forces as I watched my nephew go through the same changes. It was by far my greatest life defining experience.
I hope to return soon as an older recruit.
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As in most aspects of life, age isn't really all that important, unless you're talking about extremes (the VERY young and the VERY old obviously have very real age-related issues). More vital, to me, is what one does with one's life experience. I have, frankly, worked with older recruits who have been complete thuds, and with just-old-enough-to-join youngsters who have been sharp, dedicated and capable soldiers.
Having said that, the one area where I believe the Reserves benefit from older recruits is its officer cadre. Younger officers--especially those in university--have a tendency to move on when finished school, often even leaving the army altogether (not surprising, since they're launching themselves into a brand new career and often don't have the time or energy to commit to the Reserves). I find that older officer candidates tend to have more staying power, especially if they're married, have full-time jobs and are settled. As long as they're fit enough, and are prepared to sacrifice vacation to attend courses (or have an employer with a military leave policy), they can be very successful as 25-30 year old (or even older) Lts. They have the added benefit of representing true depth to the unit's leadership succession, since a 30 year old Lt can easily look at being a 45 or 50 year old CO. Unfortunately, we seem to go through a lot of 20 year old Lts for every one that makes it to the senior officer ranks.
Having said that, the one area where I believe the Reserves benefit from older recruits is its officer cadre. Younger officers--especially those in university--have a tendency to move on when finished school, often even leaving the army altogether (not surprising, since they're launching themselves into a brand new career and often don't have the time or energy to commit to the Reserves). I find that older officer candidates tend to have more staying power, especially if they're married, have full-time jobs and are settled. As long as they're fit enough, and are prepared to sacrifice vacation to attend courses (or have an employer with a military leave policy), they can be very successful as 25-30 year old (or even older) Lts. They have the added benefit of representing true depth to the unit's leadership succession, since a 30 year old Lt can easily look at being a 45 or 50 year old CO. Unfortunately, we seem to go through a lot of 20 year old Lts for every one that makes it to the senior officer ranks.
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I support dglad here. It really is about the abilities of the individual. I have certainly seen both examples that dglad refers to, and although I think the younger recruit makes a better bargain over all, the mature individual cannot be dismissed out of hand. The people of Canada who choose to pursue the profession of arms, Regular or Reserve, are already well out of the ordinary as considered against the mainstream of the population. What we need to do is set standards and make sure people meet them, regardless of age, sex, etc. Cheers.
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As a 34 year old recruit, now a Dragoon I must say that I have never had a problem with the fitness in the military in fact, I noticed since I have been in that the younger people are more out of shape then I had ever imagined. It must be the computer games and low fat potato chips the kids are eating. I've seen a lot of young guys that do nothing but whine about doing PT, I also see young men & women that have discipline issues exspecially the simple things like just cleaning up after themself. I don't think the physical fitness is a age problem I think its a lot of peoples problem. I say get off the damn computer and reading about working out and combat training and do it.
Thanks for listening to the Old Man.
Thanks for listening to the Old Man.
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