Offr-NCO-NCM Relationships

[Sabre1918]

It's fancinating how people can twist a simple concept.  :

Did I say......I was choosing to treat anyone with contempt?
I mearly said that "Familiarity breeds contempt".
In my observation 20 years in the CF I can honestly say that....yes it happens.
It  has improved a lot over the past few years, but the problem still persists in
all ranks.

Lee

 

[CombatMP265]

The best way to summ my view of the Officer NCM relationship can only be done anecdotally.
As I've only been in the forces going on 2 years (all that time as an Officer) and recently going through this dilemma I'd like to make my own points.

Being a Reserve Officer I find we're more apt to be confronted with this sort of 'How do I treat _____ in a public place?' and my approach to it has and will always be treat said person as a member of the forces. Now I'm not saying I don't act personable, I try quite often now to know more about my troops lives outside of the Army. But that goes without saying my commission does not disintegrate when I take off my uniform and I still am a representative of the Queen.

From the moment I was sworn in it was made absolutely clear to me my role as an Officer from another Senior Officer who I can without a doubt say was a soldier who had won the respect of his troops. Not everyone liked him, but they for damn sure respected him. The difficulty with the Reserve form of training is that your not constantly being reinforced with a professional attitude. Your put on the uniform 4 times a month and 1-2 weekends and that's it. So for some its not really explained without a good jacking by your Senior NCO's what the service means. It's my opinion that it comes to a question of personal discipline. If a soldier conducts them selves in a professional manner they'll view their job in one too. The Army has always been known for the comradery it builds and while that is one of its strengths it can also be a weakness (although limitedly).
I have to conduct myself in a manner that lets them realize this isn't a game. What their training for is real, were not putting on a uniform to go 'play' soldier but to serve Canada. As my time in the service continues I'm noticing more and more the difference between seasoned troops and new recruits (Who unlike the Regs are allowed into the unit prior to Basic Courses). The unrealistic expectations and the outright absurd (true ex. "I play a lot of Tom Clancy, so I think I'll be good...."). Working with inexperienced persons who make up even a small percentage of the overall group still means you have to teach to the lowest one. I can trust my NCO's to conduct themselves but when the appropriate "slack" is shown to them but seen by the new recruits this magnifies bad habits in their developing service conduct.


Ok, different sub-topic. I have never once in my training come across the motif of "Officers are superior to NCM's". eing a product of the infamous "Mixed BMQ" I was quite often 'reminded' that OCdt's are lower than Pte(R). And doing the Reg force CAP(Phase 2) taught me quite personally the difference between the roles of NCM and Officer (including a new found respect for the infantry). While I won't say its never happend AND I have personally seen some persons with this view. I can only vouch for myself and those I've worked with. But this isn't something thats taught It's a toxic growth from in a system that was once founded on priviledge and birth.

"Sir did you get to use the C6 this summer?"
"No, they don't teach us that."
"Why don't they teach you that weapon?"
"Cause in the field you guys are my weapons."

 

[043]

Does anybody want to tell him?

 

[mover1]

I would like to but I don't know where to begin......

 

[Good2Golf]

The best way to summ my view of the Officer NCM relationship can only be done anecdotally.
As I've only been in the forces going on 2 years (all that time as an Officer) and recently going through this dilemma I'd like to make my own points........

Roger so far...

Ok, different sub-topic. I have never once in my training come across the motif of "Officers are superior to NCM's". eing a product of the infamous "Mixed BMQ" I was quite often 'reminded' that OCdt's are lower than Pte(R). And doing the Reg force CAP(Phase 2) taught me quite personally the difference between the roles of NCM and Officer (including a new found respect for the infantry). While I won't say its never happend AND I have personally seen some persons with this view. I can only vouch for myself and those I've worked with. But this isn't something thats taught It's a toxic growth from in a system that was once founded on priviledge and birth.

"Sir did you get to use the C6 this summer?"
"No, they don't teach us that."
"Why don't they teach you that weapon?"
"Cause in the field you guys are my weapons."

???  not tracking this at all...

 

[mover1]

Sounds like something right out of Monty Python.

And now for soemthing completely different......... :-\

 

[dredwulf]

Its the old saying....and it goes:

"Familiarity breeds contempt"...This means that the more you know something or someone, the more you start to find faults and dislike things about it or them.

Lee

I agree.

'Contempt' is a strong word, too close to 'hate' on the scale of attitudes toward someone or something, but the gist is there.

You can see this in action, when you meet a superior officer or NCO, and they have a strong character.  You can't help but respect of even idolize them.

But if you are in a position to be around them, in close quarters, for extended periods, you learn all of their faults.

While you don't actively dislike them for being humans, they lose the lustre of being the paragon you thought they were.

 

[Maybee]

Any good unit will develop handles (No joke)  Handles were completely acceptable and encouraged in our platoon overseas (Of course, some handles happened to be Sergeant, Warrant, and Sir(EllTee))

Infanteer posted that one. I agree handles strike a nice balance between a little familiarity (part of the team, good troop etc) and the important distance between the soldiers and the leadership cadre.
On a completely unrelated note that quote for your signature isn't from the novel "Gates of Fire" is it?

 

[Wookilar]

Yes, I'm new here. Yes, I have read all the posts in this thread.
Having switched to the dark side (UTPNCM) and gone through IAP in St. Jean (that particular establishment deserves a whole discussion of its own, I actually liked Cornwallis compared to that place) and now nearing the end of my first year at RMC, I understand a great deal more of why (some) officers behave in the way they do. One of the things I've seen commented in this thread a few times is the sometimes witnessed superior attitudes shown by mostly junior officers. Some, unfortunately, never seem to grow out of it.
And that's the thing. These OCdt's are 98% 17-20 years old with virtually no work experience and being told they are leaders without having anything under their belt but CAP (if that). Another thing to remember, all of the contact between OCdt's and NCM's (of any rank) are either in an instructional or disciplinary environment. The largest exposure most OCdt's get of NCM's at RMC are the poor, stressed out members of the UTPNCM (Otter Sqn) and that's not always a good thing. They have no idea what a Cpl is capable of let alone a WO. It's not really their fault, they are not getting any exposure to the whole wide world. Right now, the academic side has the high ground on development and available training time is at a premium, so anything such as a job experience program is hard to come by. Even standard military training takes a back seat to academic/language class time.
Something that might help narrow this gap in perceptions is what used to be SOP in 1 SVC BN in Calgary. All the BLt's (baby Lt's) would do time on the shop floor, working as a swamper for an experienced MRT, and go through the different Pl's to actually learn what the NCM's were doing. Some also took it a level higher and spent time with the NCO's and shadowed them for a bit. Would this work in all trades? Don't think it would hurt.
IMHO, a gap does have to remain between Officer's/NCO's/NCM's (particularly for the Army and Navy. The Air Force says they are the only ones that do it right by sending out their Officers to die. They're a bit funny anyway ). The best officers I've ever worked for/with knew my face and name (especially in the pointy end units) and talked to me in an appropriate manner. We also enjoyed (a few) wobbly pops at smokers/unit parties. Two of the worst officers I have ever seen tried way to hard to be "one of the guys" and just ended up essentially destroying Pl/Coy morale and effectiveness. Try going on tour in that kind of environment!
The training has not caught up with the real world requirements, but it is changing. Last year, the decision was made at CFRS St. Jean that the recruits and OCdt's would share the same mess. Somebody that makes a whole lot more money than I decided that this would be a good idea for a number of reasons. One of which, as we were told, was for more interaction between NCM's and Officers. Only time will tell if it works.

 

[Good2Golf]

Wookilar, sounds like an excellent idea 1 Svc Bn had (has?). 

As a young pup on squadron and preparing to take my maintenance test pilot (MTP) course, I checked with the AMO Sgt if things were OK then popped my head into engine bay and asked, "Hey, gents...can anyone give me some pointers on how to tear down a T-55 or PT-6 hot-end (the Chinook and Twin Huey's engines)?"  The fitters rightly looked at me like I had a toaster for a head, then told me to grab a set of coveralls and come take a look.  Over time, I would drop into all the various sections around the squadron and not only gained a much better appreciation of what the guys and gals did on a daily basis and who they were, but learned a whackload more about the machine than could ever be found in the flight manual.  Whenever I was the sqn duty officer, I would go out of my way to come in after hours and test fly the machine that the techs had in many cases spent hours working on.  IMO, nothing would be worse than bending wrenches on a machine then having the aircraft sit until Monday morning to have one of the MTPs saunter in to test fly it. 

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Wookilar]

Duey,
I honestly do not know if the Svc Bn still does business that way or not. I left the mother ship about 9 years ago now, soon after we moved to Edmonton. From what I experienced, the vast majority of the young officers actually liked to get their hands dirty a bit. For most, it was the first time they had played with anything outside of a school setting.
I'm not sure if there would be a way for this to work in the Cmbt Arms trades. It would take some doing for a young 2Lt to be accepted enough to be part of a Section as a Rifleman. CAP may not be Battle School, but it should be enough for the basic skills. I have little knowledge of the training involved on the Armd/Arty side, so I don't know if such a thing would be possible. With the tech trades, where the techs work alone or in teams of two, it is much easier for a swamper to slip in for a bit here and there. Anyone can follow directions of "take that off, but try not to break it."

 

[ZipperHead]

There have been occasions in the past where Aromur officers in between Phase training would do OJT in a unit, usually in Gagetown (either within the Armour School or at C Sqn RCD (pre-93) or A Sqn VIII CH (93-98), but occasionally they would go to the Regiments. They would sometimes be employed as tank loaders, getting experience in the turret while on exercise or on courses, working with the troops on the hangar floor (doing maintenance), or getting experience in an office with paperwork.

In my opinion, this usually made them into better officers, as they usually gained a perspective of the work that gets done, day to day, giving them an insight into what it is like to be a soldier. Of course, a lot of them hated it, as it is boring and I suppose that is the point (why they were given OJT): they get an insight into what it is for a soldier to do this for their whole career.

I think if more officers were given this type of experience, we would all be the better for it, and IMO, if more officers were to come from the ranks, there would likely be less of the "us vs them" mentality.

Al

 

[Fraser.g]

Sorry to add my two cents but,

I have a small group of people within my unit and because of this we are a close nit society.
Yes I am cloister than my regular force counterparts but I do not believe that this undermines my ability to lead or command.
Those within my comand staff are mature enough and professionally enough to know the difference between play time and work time. yew this is a reserve structure and would not work in other circumstances, but it does ours.

 

[medicineman]

I remember when I went on my medevac course, one of the hardest adjustments I had to make was calling someone who had been an instructor of mine on my 3's and a platoon warrant of mine and was now an MWO, by their first name.  In fact, everyone was on a first name basis - Cpl to Capt.  It's something I saw in the air force when I was in Cold Lake on my 4's and again, had a bit of a problem with, seeing as I was from an Army unit at the time and just a private at the time.  Even worse when it's officers telling you to call them by their first names and in public no less.

Don't get me wrong, if someone wants to call me by my first name, that's fine, but it shouldn't be in a public place.  But, last I heard, this a priviledge that runs DOWN hill, not up - officers are still Sir/Mam or Doctor such and such.  If someone else wants to call me by my first name, I'll let that person know whether they can or not and when/where it's acceptable to do so - there are many military people that I work with on the civilian side in the volunteer community, so sometimes we forget where we are(myself included).

My extra $0.02.

MM

 

[loyalist]

I was talking to a Major in my psych about doing OJT as a rifleman in one of the infantry battalions for an OJT. Personally, I really hope that I get my B/B/B rating, because I think that would teach me far more than going through old accounts and manuals. Knowing the way some of us are here, going through a summer (or maybe even a year) as a private is neccesary to grind the edge of some of the more arrogant types here, and for the rest of us, it would be a load of experience and fun which would be invaluable.


If only they could find time for everyone to do it in their four years....

 

[Timex]

There's lots of good posts here and I'd like to add my 2 cents to the pot. To begin with it absolutely drove me nuts when I was a Sgt and one of my guys would refer to the one of the officers by his 1st name, not directly but in reference to him. I had one Cpl who I think did it on purpose just to get me to blow. I'm not a stress case but it's just one of those things. I hold the view like some others here that familiarity can breed contempt. Although not in everyone, most troops know how to act professionally and as long as the line's not crossed everyone is happy (even the Sgt). But, like it or not there's always a few clowns both commissioned and noncommissioned who can't see the harm in calling each other "Bill"just because it's OK on the hockey team. Fine, leave it on the ice, there's no place for it in the unit lines. It erodes discipline in a unit. It doesn't just pop out it's ugly head the day Capt Bob has to order MCpl Dave to die taking a trench, it's far more likely be there lurking during the normal course of action of a peace time army. Snr NCO's see it every day.  It would be fine if the Pl was a static entity that stayed together for 20 year sand you become this happy family but that's not the reality. New people come and go all the time so it's better if the status quo is Sir, or Capt. This way it's the same for the new guys, regardless of rank, as it is for the poor bastards who can't seem to buy a posting. I know I'm running gut feel here rather than presenting a well positioned argument using documented case studies in control groups (I'm sure the more learned members of the group could probably dig one up) but that's all I've got. And let me take the opportunity here to say in contrast to the tone of my post I actually liked most of my officers (OK 51%) I just don't want them calling the troops "Cindy"or what ever the hell their names are!

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
one of my guys would refer to the one of the officers by his 1st name, not directly but in reference to him. I had one Cpl who I think did it on purpose just to get me to blow.

...and thats why he did it, well that and not having any "professional courtesy" in him.

 

[Kat Stevens]

GOCs parade, 4 CER, 1989.  Bde Comd arrives to inspect our troop, TC falls in at the rear of the entourage.  Turns to me in his best buddy-buddy tone and says "How are you today, Kat?" 
  "Great thanks, Jim" sez I...
Bde RSM had to excuse himself and walk behind an AVLB for a good 30 sec belly laugh...

 

[Collin.t]

It's all good to share personal experience and to say that this is good or this is bad, what has to be studied here is the relationship in itself.

for anyone concerned in the relation between unequals (as in different ranks) I recommend reading this little book by Aristotle : Nicomachaen Ethic book #8

http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/nicomachaen.html

It goes in debt on the nature of friendship/relationship, between equal and non equal people.

After reading that books many times over the past few years, I have absolutly no problems grasping the nature of a relation that I have with someone which can be multifaced, at work, at a bar, in public, in private etc etc.

If you don't care about reading the whole thing cause it doesn't strictly concern today's topic you should start about half way.

Collin

 

[Sgt_McWatt]

I know this is an old thread but I thought it would be better then starting a new one.

I took the time to read through all of these opinions and interpretations, however I was unable to find a link to or even an explanation as to what the Canadian Forces policy is.
It's something I’ve been trying to look up.

Thanks,