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Official: British troops freed in jailbreak (????)

And before some granola-muncher asks "How could we support these men?" or some such nonsense, let me point out, 'You do what you can with what you got."

I would make a point of explaining the merits of Democracy and Free Enterprise thusly: The freer the economy, the higher the standard of living. The higher the standard of living, the more money people have.  The more money people have, the more you can steal. And if you do it as part of a legitimately elected government, you can do it legally.

Positively heart-warming how fast these heartless men would suddenly develop an interest in improving the life of their fellows. Liberty and Justice for all. Mo' money for me.

Ya gotta target your audience.
 
Kirkhill and paracowboy, thanks for your comments.
I'd say though, that there is a point in the deteriorating situation in Iraq where the benefit of staying there is gone and the foreign troop presence creates more problems than it solves.  If the bulk of the Iraqis (or Amerians/Brits civilians at home) turn against the occupution, there isn't much point in sticking around.



 
SpruceTree said:
Kirkhill and paracowboy, thanks for your comments.
I'd say though, that there is a point in the deteriorating situation in Iraq where the benefit of staying there is gone and the foreign troop presence creates more problems than it solves.   If the bulk of the Iraqis (or Amerians/Brits civilians at home) turn against the occupution, there isn't much point in sticking around.
if the bulk did, true. But, from the boots on the ground, the locals appreciate the Coalition Forces. Take a close look the next time the news shows a "crowd scene" reviling the "Occupiers". Take note of sex, age, and location. Compare it to demographics and geography.
 
SpruceTree - head over to Lightfighter.net - a lot of the boots on the ground are reporting greatly increased public support.

The MASS MEDIA who enjoy increased sales from pitching "their side" make minor issues into molehills -- in turn robbing the boots and the local population of support from NA and Europe.

 
KevinB said:
The MASS MEDIA who enjoy increased sales from pitching "their side" make minor issues into molehills -- in turn robbing the boots and the local population of support from NA and Europe.
thus, creating their own quagmire. A self-fulfilling prophecy does enhance one's reputation for infallibilty doesn't it?

Today's media is desperate to accomplish what their fellow-traveller predecessors did in Africa and South-East Asia in the '60s & '70s: bring down a presidential administration at the expense of thousands of innocent lives, and the set-back of Liberty and Free-Enterprise.
 
All in the name of reporting the "news"  ::)

Makes me sick...
 
Spruce Tree:

Follow the news reports - when the occupation first occurred reporters filled the screen with images of 10s of middle aged english speaking Iraqis in western clothing protesting outside the reporters hotels.  The only way to learn in English in Saddam's Iraq and be able to afford western clothes was to be a Baathist.

Over the next few months larger crowds were filmed in more areas - reports talked of 100s, 1000s, 10s of thousands of demonstrators in a large number of communities.  Violence was reported in every province.

After a while, as you followed the reports, fewer and fewer provinces were named, fewer and fewer communities were named and the numbers in each demonstration have dwindled to their hundreds again - even Moqtada had trouble getting more than 3000 demonstrators in his home area recently.

Similar numbers of Saddams family and friends turned out in Tikrit.

Now we are down to a mob of 200 to 500 including youngsters.

Curiously the screen on the television is still filled.  The headlines in the newspapers are still the same size.  The same dire vocabulary is employed.  Sandy Renaldo and Peter Mansbridge continue to announce the story in the same breathless tones.

The impression stays the same to sell soap.  The facts change constantly and in this case the facts continue to indicate that the situation in Iraq, even as reported by the media, continues to improve.

I once offered an opinion to a friend that China would become a capitalist country under a communist government because the Communist Party could never accept the loss of face that would come with a name change and thus accepting that they had been wrong.

I offer the same opinion about the media in Iraq.  If the level of violence becomes similar to that in Toronto this summer ( would that be an improvement or a regression? ) the news media will still declare Iraq to be a nasty dangerous place in which everything that is vile has been caused by those filthy capitalists.

Actually come to think of it wasn't that the line that David Miller and the GTA politicians were trotting out about Toronto in any case?
 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1790292,00.html

More on this story from the Times.

This quote struck me.

Abbas Hassan, another officer, said: "Four tanks invaded the area. A tank cannon struck a room where a policeman was praying."

Strangely enough I find no reason to doubt this.
 
It appears to me that some posters on here would prefer that the British did nothing.  I wonder if they would then be complaining that the British Army had abandoned their own if the soldiers had their heads removed Bigley style?

As for the policeman praying in room - so what?  Is it suggested that the British Army should wait until it is convenient for he Iraqi Police next time.

I am sure that even if no one was praying - it would still be claimed in order to some how vilify the Brits.

I think it was an excellent result, especially when you consider how many of the Iraqi Police are still alive to complain about it.
 
<out of context: on>

Posted by: Kirkhill
I once offered an opinion to a friend that China would become a capitalist country under a communist government because the Communist Party could never accept the loss of face that would come with a name change and thus accepting that they had been wrong.

A valid observation. Wasn't it in the news couple of days ago that, over half of China's economy is now generated by private means?

<out of context: off>
 
KevinB, Kirkhill, et al,
Thanks for the links and comments!  There is broad range of information out there and I'm looking for a balance.

Nomad,
Are you insinuating that I think the British should not have rescued their own because I've asked some questions? Nowhere in my posts do I suggest the British were wrong to act. I'd be concerned if they did nothing. Given the information at hand, I think  they did what they needed to do. Let's be explicitly clear on that!  If it's me you're refering to I think you're drawing conclusions that aren't there. If not, my apologies for this wee blurb.
 
2 JTF commando's are detained after being accused of shooting at Afghani police...What do you think We would do?
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4269672.stm  Brits in Warrior talk about the molotov attack
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4267054.stm  More on repercussions and a "Police" organized protest/riot (presumably complaining about the high price of bricks)
 
BITTER PPCLI CPL said:
2 JTF commando's are detained after being accused of shooting at Afghani police...What do you think We would do?
Knowing our government, we would hem and haw, ignore our men, and maybe after a year or so plead for their release and then pay said captors for their troubles! ;)
 
2 Cdo said:
Knowing our government, we would hem and haw, ignore our men, and maybe after a year or so plead for their release and then pay said captors for their troubles! ;)

Not to mention grant the captors and their families refugee status when they decide to immigrate to Canada.
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
Not to mention grant the captors and their families refugee status when they decide to immigrate to Canada.
Damn, I forgot about that! We must also remember to provide them with health care and the local number of the welfare office. Must not actually expect them to work here, they are still traumatized from having to torture our soldiers they held captive! :threat:
 
UPDATE ON STORY

Notice how the Iraqis now say the SAS guys were arrested for "At first, Basra police said the two British soldiers shot and killed a policeman before they were taken into custody, but on Tuesday al-Jaafari's spokesman, Haydar al-Abadi, said the men â ” who were wearing civilian clothes â ” were grabbed for behaving suspiciously and collecting information."

They'll need to get their story straight.

Anywho, we know how our government would react if a Canadian soldier was held hostage or arrested, look back at what happened in Bosnia.
It doesn't inspire confidence.



By THOMAS WAGNER, Associated Press Writer 1 hour, 9 minutes ago

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Hundreds of Iraqi civilians and policemen, some waving pistols and AK-47s, rallied Wednesday in the southern city of Basra to denounce "British aggression" in the rescue of two British soldiers.
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The Basra governor threatened to end all cooperation with British forces unless Prime Minister
Tony Blair's government apologizes for the deadly clash with Iraqi police. Britain defended the raid.

In London, British Defense Secretary John Reid and Iraqi Prime Minister Ibrahim al-Jaafari tried to minimize the effect of the fighting, saying it would not undermine the relationship between the two nations or their determination to lead
Iraq to peace and democracy.

But the fighting raised new concerns about the power that radical Shiite militias with close ties to
Iran have developed in the region, questions about the role of Britain's 8,500-strong force in Iraq and doubts about the timetable for handing over power to local security forces.

There has been disagreement about just what happened late Monday, when British armor crashed into a jail to free two British soldiers who had been arrested by Iraqi police.

According to the British, Shiite Muslim militiamen moved the two soldiers from the jail to a private home while British officials tried to negotiate their release with Iraqi officials. After raiding the jail, the British say they rescued the soldiers in a nearby private home in the custody of Shiite militias.

Earlier that day, a crowd attacked British troops with stones and Molotov cocktails.

Troops had tried to negotiate with the crowd in Basra "but that had no effect and it became more hostile quite quickly after that," Sgt. Eddie Pickersgill, whose face was bruised by a rock, said in television interviews in Britain on Wednesday.

Iraqi Interior Minister Bayan Jabr disputed the British account of the raid that followed. He told the British Broadcasting Corp. the two soldiers never left police custody or the jail, were not handed over to militants, and that the British army acted on a "rumor" when it stormed the jail.

But Basra's governor, Mohammed al-Waili, said the two men were indeed moved from the jail. He said they were placed in the custody of the al-Mahdi Army, the militia of radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

"The two British were being kept in a house controlled by militiamen when the rescue operation took place," al-Waili said. "Police who are members of the militia group took them to a nearby house after jail authorities learned the facility was about to be stormed."

At first, Basra police said the two British soldiers shot and killed a policeman before they were taken into custody, but on Tuesday al-Jaafari's spokesman, Haydar al-Abadi, said the men â ” who were wearing civilian clothes â ” were grabbed for behaving suspiciously and collecting information.

Lisa Glover, a British Foreign Office spokeswoman in Baghdad, said the two soldiers "were challenged by armed men in plain clothes ... and they obviously didn't know who they were being challenged by." But "when Iraqi police asked them to stop, they did," she told The Associated Press.

She said British officials negotiated with Iraqi authorities in Basra for the release of the two soldiers with an Iraqi judge present. "When it became apparent they were no longer at the station, but had been moved elsewhere, we naturally became concerned."

Iraqi National Security Adviser Mowaffak al-Rubaie, a Shiite politician who has criticized the British raid as "a violation of Iraqi sovereignty," acknowledged that one problem coalition forces face is that insurgents have joined the ranks of security forces.

"Iraqi security forces in general, police in particular, in many parts of Iraq, I have to admit, have been penetrated by some of the insurgents, some of the terrorists as well," he said in an interview with the BBC on Tuesday night.

Officials in Basra, speaking on condition of anonymity because they feared for their lives, said at least 60 percent of the police force there is made up of Shiite militiamen from one of three groups: the Mahdi Army; the Badr Brigade, the armed wing of the Supreme Council of the Islamic Revolution in Iraq; and Hezbollah in Iraq, a small group based in the southern marshlands.

The militias have deep historical, religious and political ties to Iran, where many Shiite political and religious figures took refuge during the rule of
Saddam Hussein.

On Wednesday, about 500 civilians and policemen held a protest in downtown Basra denouncing "British aggression."

The demonstrators, waving pistols and AK-47s, shouted "No to occupation!" and carried banners condemning "British aggression" and demanding the freed soldiers be tried in an Iraqi court as "terrorists."

Some protesters met with the Basra police chief, Gen. Hassan Sawadi, to demand a British apology, said police spokesman Col. Karim al-Zaidi. Heavily armed soldiers and police watched the protest but didn't intervene. Al-Zaidi said the demonstration was arranged spontaneously by some policemen, not by the force or its commander.

Several hours after the protest, Basra's provincial council held an emergency meeting and voted unanimously "to stop dealing with the British forces working in Basra and not to cooperate with them because of their irresponsible aggression on a government facility."

In a statement, the council demanded Britain apologize to Basra's citizens and police and provide compensation for the families of people killed or wounded in the violence. The council also said it would punish employees who had not tried to defend the Basra police station from the British military attack.

Five Iraqi civilians were killed in the fighting, including two who died of their injuries Wednesday in a hospital, and other people wounded, Iraqi authorities said.

"The British troops should stop these barbarian and illegal actions," al-Waili said in a telephone interview. "I am one of the 41 members of the provincial council, and I support boycotting the British troops and stopping all the cooperation with them until our demands are met."

Al-Jaafari and Reid, who met in London to discuss a range of issues, said the clashes in Basra would not undermine the relationship between their countries.

"At this time, where there are forces in Basra and all over Iraq, such things are expected to happen," al-Jaafari told reporters. "As for us, it will not affect the relationship between Iraq and Britain, and we hope that together we will reach ... the truth of the matter."

Reid said "there has not been a fundamental breakdown in trust between the British government and the Iraqi government," and he vowed British troops would stay in Iraq until it was stable. "We will not cut and run, and we will not leave the job half done," he said.

___

Associated Press writer Tarek El-Tablawy in Baghdad contributed to this report.
 
Militias supplant Basra police, inflict chaos
By Adrian Blomfield
LONDON DAILY TELEGRAPH
Published September 21, 2005
BAGHDAD -- They wear police uniforms and drive official police vehicles, but the main priority of the rival militias that have usurped Basra's police force is not to maintain law and order.
Instead, they have turned Iraq's third-largest city into a patchwork of rival fiefdoms, where competing militias run corruption scams and kill their rivals, dumping the bodies into a garbage dump known as the Lot on the outskirts of the city.
Although British troops have earned plaudits for avoiding the sledgehammer tactics of American troops in Sunni Arab areas to the north, questions are being asked about the wisdom of Britain's "softly, softly" policy.
British officers, however, say they have little choice in the matter, insisting that troop strength has been insufficient to deal with the problem.
"Quite frankly, we have one brigade here and we've worked bloody miracles," said an officer in Basra who asked not to be identified. "We have had to let the Iraqis get on with it."
There was a sense of inevitability about the chaotic scenes in Basra on Monday, when British tanks smashed the walls of an Iraqi prison to free two undercover British soldiers seized earlier by Iraqi forces.
British officials had been keen to emphasize the relative tranquillity of the city in comparison with Baghdad and other towns to the north.
But behind the scenes is growing unease at Basra's descent into lawlessness and on the increasing influence of Iran on the city's main political factions.
Troops were ordered not to stop if challenged by police officers in case they were militiamen linked to attacks that, this month alone, have resulted in the deaths of three British soldiers and eight Americans in the Basra region.
The raid to rescue two Special Air Service commandos held by a militia that operated as part of Basra's police force has destroyed the pretense of a normal relationship with Basra's authorities.
The group holding the two soldiers blithely ignored instructions from the government in Baghdad to release them, leading many observers to ask who really controls the city.
In May, Basra's police chief, Hassan al-Sade, acknowledged that he had lost control of 75 percent of his 13,750-strong force, saying they either worked for political factions or were involved in attacks on coalition forces.
For his honesty, Basra's governor, Mohammed al-Waili -- who condemned the British raid to free the commandos as "barbaric, savage and irresponsible" -- fired him.
Since the United States handed over sovereignty to an Iraqi government in June 2004, Basra has become one of the country's most conservative Shi'ite bastions.
The city is essentially divided among three factions, although even they are riven by internal squabbles.
The Mahdi's Army of Sheik Muqtada al-Sadr, the cleric who twice last year led bloody confrontations against U.S. forces, is the smallest but is gaining ground in two of Basra's largest suburbs.
The Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI), the largest party in the ruling coalition, is officially the largest faction and its Badr Brigade militia is accused of many of the assassinations.
SCIRI, however, often is outmaneuvered by the Fudala party, which fell out with Sheik al-Sadr but follows the radical strictures of his father, Mohammed Sadiq al-Sadr.
It is led by Mohammed Yaqubi, who has close ties to grand ayatollahs in the Iranian holy city of Qom. All three groups are determined to some extent to turn Iraq into an Islamic republic modeled on Iran.
"Iran has a very strong influence across Basra," said respected Iraqi member of parliament Ali al-Dabbagh. "It's not just the Sadrists. Individuals in each and every party are receiving financial backing from Iran."
 
I have to to give it to the Brits they look after their own. When they realised that they could not secure the release of their 2 soldiers through diplomatic means they they went in force and released them. It's a better outcome then the orange pyjama.
 
The operation to rescue their soldiers was well done. Why the incident occured in the first place is my big question.
 
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