Off-Road Recce / Driver Wheeled and Adventure Training Course

[Sig_Des]

Fair enough. It was an idea to throw out there. Either way this was a branch of something we already have going so if no one seems into than I wont waste my time. Stick to where I have already succeeded. Thanks for the advice.

Not saying you're wasting your time. Don't let yourself get discouraged. There are other courses that run into this, mainly mounted Recce, the old Motorcyle dispatcher course, etc.

The Idea has merit. But you have to realize that a lot of the time you'll be hitting walls. Research what you need deeply, and come up with a proposal, that covers all points.

Look at the gunfighter program that was started by the PPPCLI, IIRC. It was inhouse, and finally branched out.

 

[Freerider]

Not saying you're wasting your time. Don't let yourself get discouraged. There are other courses that run into this, mainly mounted Recce, the old Motorcyle dispatcher course, etc.

The Idea has merit. But you have to realize that a lot of the time you'll be hitting walls. Research what you need deeply, and come up with a proposal, that covers all points.

Look at the gunfighter program that was started by the PPPCLI, IIRC. It was inhouse, and finally branched out.

I REALLY HOPE THIS DOESN'T GET INTERPRETED THE WRONG WAY BUT -
An issue I would face as well would be the fact that the old guys may not like this new young idea. They like things they know and something new like this can be unnerving. Sadly all people who make these decisions are well, let's say older than I so it would be quite challenging to get the idea across to those type of people. Who knows maybe one of them was a sledder back in the 70's.

 

[Sig_Des]

They like things they know and something new like this can be unnerving. Sadly all people who make these decisions are well, let's say older than I so it would be quite challenging to get the idea across to those type of people.

I dunno. Recceguy could fall under that category  ;D but he posted this:

Keep the ideas coming and don't get discouraged.

A lot of the older hands did go through some courses that were more like this, like I mentioned, the motorcycle dispatcher course, off-road recce in light vehicles, etc.

Like I said, the best way to turn people around to new ideas when they're entrenched, is to propose the merit of the course, and then come up with ammunition to shoot down their arguments before they get a chance to use them. Ask for their advice too, they know the system.

 

[Roy Harding]

I understand what you're saying, Banger - and as an "old guy" I partially agree with you.

However - what the "old guys" have is experience - experience in making things happen, and experience in fouling things up.  They've BEEN there (back when THEY were YOU).  More importantly, from your point of view, it is the "old guys" who hold the purse strings, and have the power to approve/deny the course you envision.

Personally - I think your idea is great, but it needs to have depth before presentation to an approving authority.  From reading this thread, I get the feeling that most other posters also like your idea - but they're playing devils advocate regarding the details.

Don't get discouraged - absorb what they (we) have to say (even if it hurts), and make your answers to their concerns part of your plan before you present it.  A well presented and thought out plan has much more chance of success than one which has plenty of enthusiasm, but little depth.

Run with it - I particularly like the suggestion someone made earlier of getting your Bn Trg O involved - (s)he'd know what you need to include in your plan.

Good luck to you.

Roy

 

[Freerider]

I dunno. Recceguy could fall under that category  ;D but he posted this:

A lot of the older hands did go through some courses that were more like this, like I mentioned, the motorcycle dispatcher course, off-road recce in light vehicles, etc.

Like I said, the best way to turn people around to new ideas when they're entrenched, is to propose the merit of the course, and then come up with ammunition to shoot down their arguments before they get a chance to use them. Ask for their advice too, they know the system.

((Hahaha, I wont go there on the first one. That's asking for it))

If I do decide to try my luck with the idea I will take all issues raised in this into consideration for sure. I appreciate the tips (as discouraging as some may be I know they raise good points) Even if it doesn't fly I can still zip around Borden on my 2-stroke behind everyones shacks early in the morning in bitter resentment.

 

[Sig_Des]

((Hahaha, I wont go there on the first one. That's asking for it))

If I do decide to try my luck with the idea I will take all issues raised in this into consideration for sure. I appreciate the tips (as discouraging as some may be I know they raise good points) Even if it doesn't fly I can still zip around Borden on my 2-stroke behind everyones shacks early in the morning in bitter resentment.

Another point is, who is your target audience to the course? An all-trades thing, specific to unit, to certain trades, etc.

 

[Freerider]

Another point is, who is your target audience to the course? An all-trades thing, specifice to unit, to certain trades, etc.

The big one would be the Recce element so units that would fall under that category. Unfortunately I am unable to provide all the details of the military aspect of this course. My partner has that part nailed. He has formulated the target groups in this concept along with benefits so forth and so on. I'm just being used for my hook-ups and experience. I wish I could answer more about the specifics but I just deal with the more 'civi' side of this (if that makes any sense).

 

[R.O.S]

Sounds like a great idea.... but as I have personally found out the bureaucracy in the military is a long and arduous journey. You need a lot of dedication and be prepared to closed doors along the way, and willingness to try and open others. But good luck nontheless  

 

[Franko]

I REALLY HOPE THIS DOESN'T GET INTERPRETED THE WRONG WAY BUT -
An issue I would face as well would be the fact that the old guys may not like this new young idea. They like things they know and something new like this can be unnerving. Sadly all people who make these decisions are well, let's say older than I so it would be quite challenging to get the idea across to those type of people. Who knows maybe one of them was a sledder back in the 70's.

Ideas are great...keep them coming.

This one has happened to a point in the past and fell on it's face, it's not a new young idea as you would think.     

Also, if you're going the "off road recce" route, you might want to make sure to get training imput from some of the mounted Recce types.

Won't work....too busy getting ready for tours to waste time on this endeavor. How's that coming from a mounted Reg Force Recce type.     

You are not qualified as per DND standards to get the prerequisites and as alluded to earlier:

Lesson plans, EOs, POs, Course reports AND the Area Battle School's standards cell.

These must be covered as well. Then there is the point of staffing it all and presenting it to higher.

Have you thought of the following?

- cost when the machine gets destroyed and DND leaves you footing the bill?
- safety vehicles, medics, training areas....private companies are not covered for this activity and you must get somewhere to train.
- housing. Where are the lectures going to be taught?
- Clearances through higher. You can't just start your own course and expect troops to train under someone who isn't qualified to teach to DND standards.
- Training cadre...civilians can do it, but there still must be staff in place to ensure standards are up to par.

The are currently courses available in the CF for ATV, dirtbike (Dispatch Rider Course) and other vehicles you want to instruct on. Just because you haven't attended one doesn't mean that they aren't out there.

Dispatch Rider Course does teach tactics and defensive measures as well as navagating and riding. It used to be 3 weeks long just for the one bike....and I believe that it still is.

As for Recce....on those vehicles, in our current operational environment, it'll get troops killed.... full stop.

Regards

 

[3rd Herd]

And believe me, for the most part, they won't care about 11 years of off-road outside of the military.

Banger,
echoing Sig_Des on a couple of points this is not an attack/defence scenario. I had to take the DR course despite at the time holding a host of civi credentials. Today, I doubt you can find any instructors for that but here again I have been known to be wrong. Next off roading and "military off road" are to different things. If you have time look into some of the current courses and vehicle modifications with the US Army. They have been doing this for at least five years I can think of, so there you have course templates, equipment trial reports, SOPs. Next if you do succeed in getting a course established there is the equipment issue. And I stand by what I said before Bombardier will not let that happan. On the other hand if you manage to get all the paperwork done it may stand a better chance with Bombardier product. That may be another option for you especially if Bombardier sees a chance of selling more product. It would also tie in nicely to the historical linkage with Bombardier now bringing back the CanAm name.

Now young lady a suggestion from someone who has almost four times as much time on a bike as you. Personally I agree 100% with your ideas are long over due. I also think someone up in Edmonton tried the same thing. What you may want to do especially if your dealership has deep pockets is run a "demo day" and ensure all the customers are from your unit. Now that covers a lot of the insurance/ medical /equipment issues. Do it a couple of times for practice and to get all your SOPs down(hint what do the US do). Once you have ALL the groundwork laid out have an invitation issued through C of C to those who have the weight in your C of  C to support you come out and watch. If you manage to get the "demo days " sorted out and your trg plan.


Edit to add:
Recce,
night riding and navigation still part of the course ? Also two guys/gals on a dirt bike with a back pack full of RPG rounds can hurt a lot of armour as the North Vietnamese found out.

 

[Franko]

Recce,
night riding and navigation still part of the course ?

Yep. As is riding with NVGs. Also being taught how to fight when mounted to the dismounted role as well. I can ask one of the troops who took the course a few months ago.

The thing is that the prerequisites are extensive and most civilians don't have a freakin' clue as to what is required nor have the expertise, aside from riding.

I'd love to see them with FFO, plates, wpns, helmet and all the ness kit a soldier needs IOT operate on the battle field in a conventional context....never mind a 360 environment we're currently in now, hence the reason those vehicles aren't being used in that role at all.

I'm already laughing.....

Regards

 

[3rd Herd]

hence the reason those vehicles aren't being used in that role at all.

Regards

By just us or others ? There has been a few items in the news about LRDG style in Afghanistan by the Brits.

 

[Franko]

By just us or others ? There has been a few items in the news about LRDG style in Afghanistan by the Brits.

I believe that there is limited use by us and them as well, in base....but I'm not going to venture out of my lane on that.

Regards