Norwegian F35's vs F22

[tomahawk6]

I wonder why the winner wasn't specified ? The Norwegians said it was good practice and that the F22 was formidable. I just wish we could build more F22's .


https://www.businessinsider.com/r-us-f-22-stealth-jets-simulate-dogfights-with-norways-f-35-warplanes-2018-8

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

You wonder ???

Ever heard the word "classified" and the expression "need-to-know".    ;D

 

[tomahawk6]

Most likely the F22 wasn't a very good dogfighter but at long range its missiles gave the F-35 a thumping if they saw them on radar.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Most likely the F22 wasn't a very good dogfighter but at long range its missiles gave the F-35 a thumping if they saw them on radar.

The F-22 is hands down THE best dogfighter in the world.

And the F-22 and F-35 both use AMRAAMs so any advantage would be due to airspeed difference.  The F-35 handles very much like a 4th gen fighter close-in.

 

[Infanteer]

The F-22 is hands down THE best dogfighter in the world.

Really?  More nimble than an F-16?

I have to break my John Boyd Energy-Maneuverability Theorem again.

 

[CBH99]

I watched the F22 flight display at RIAT 2017, and no other fighter even came close.

2 highlights I remember...

1.  The thing was airborne like 3 seconds after it "punched it" and started moving.  Literally.  It went from stationary at the end of the runway, rolled a few feet on it's wheels, and poof...was in the air & landing gear was retracted.  Absolute beast.

2.  My mind tried to comprehend how it seemed to defy the laws of physics.  I watched it - with my own 2 eyes - maneuver in the air, completely stationary.  No "forward momentum to generate lift" under the wings, the way physics suggests needs to be the case for airplanes to work... this thing basically rotates on it's axis while almost stationary.  Then immediately pitched down, rolled slightly, and was right back in the fight.


Were other aircraft just as nimble, if not moreso?  Sure.  The Rafale had a pretty similar performance & was very impressive, as was the Typhoon.  Even the Gripen was fun to watch, but it almost looks like a Mini (car) amongst SUV's and full sized sports cars.  But the F-22 was in a league of it's own, hands down.

 

[BurmaShave]

Really?  More nimble than an F-16?

I have to break my John Boyd Energy-Maneuverability Theorem again.

In the terms Boyd used, yes. The Raptor has a higher thrust-to-weight ratio, and lower wing loading (both loaded and unloaded). This gets starker at max weight, as the F-16 is saddled with draggy external stores, while the F-22 is not.

Outside his terms, also yes. Between the black magic of "fly by wire" (which is 20 years newer and better designed in the F-22, even though the F-16's has obviously had updates), thrust vectoring (F-16 hates a slow fight to begin with), and even little things like flight control actuators make the Raptor decisively more "nimble" than an F-16.

Standard disclaimer, I'm not a fighter pilot; I just pick their brains.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Really?  More nimble than an F-16?

I have to break my John Boyd Energy-Maneuverability Theorem again.

Like CBH99, I have watched a Raptor do things that seem to defy the laws of physics. I would not want to fight against it.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Like CBH99, I have watched a Raptor do things that seem to defy the laws of physics. I would not want to fight against it.

Smart enemies (unlike Goering) will go for the airfields, of course, leaving the VTOL fleet to take the strain.

Dig for victory! And continued health!

 

[tomahawk6]

In a related story featuring the F22 pilots that the Norwegians exercised with.

https://www.stripes.com/news/from-norway-to-spain-fifth-generation-fighters-fly-for-defense-of-europe-1.542925

F-22 Raptor pilots Capt. Ian Gregoire, left, and Lt. Col. Matthew Tromans flank Norwegian F-35 pilot Maj. Morten Hanche as they pose for photographers after landing there fifth-generation aircraft at Orland Main Air Station, Norway, Wednesday, August 15, 2018.

 

[winnipegoo7]

Smart enemies (unlike Goering) will go for the airfields...

Like this fellow

 

[dimsum]

Like this fellow

Good god man.  His eyebrow alone would make me surrender.

 

[winnipegoo7]

Good god man.  His eyebrow alone would make me surrender.

unfortunately manscaping hadn't been invented yet.  :nod:

 

[a_majoor]

The F-22 is a dedicated air superiority platform, so all other things being equal, it should win.

However not all things are ever equal, and things like pilot skill and even how the exercise was set up would have a huge factor in the outcome. Even then the F-22 likely can take the option of choosing where and when to disengage should the pilot feel disadvantaged.

A more realistic setup might be a formation of F-35's against  Raptor, since now the F-35's will be using the network sensor fusion capabilities, and likely be able to detect and engage the F-22 at long range before the F-22 can use its superior performance against them.

 

[Good2Golf]

It's a non-sensical comparison, for starters.  The APG-77(V)1 still has significantly higher EIRP than the APG-81, so even if a single F-22 were for whatever reason, fighting with a formation of F-35s, with similar low-observability of the respective airframes, the 22 will still out-sense the 35s.

What would be more useful would be to see something like a Su-35 with latest version of the IRIS radar and its IRST, fly against a 35 or 22.

Regards,
G2G