Non-Issue Kit

[hhour48]

What is the current CF policy on wearing non-issue kit in the field (i.e. load-bearing gear), provided that it is in OD/CADPAT?

I know that CANFORGEN allows civvie pattern "patrol packs", as long as they are in "acceptable colour"...

 

[Black6]

Check with the RSM!

 

[Soldier of Fortune]

I‘m in Cadets but im wondering if in the Reserves/Reg Force if you can bring/wear civvie cammo paint on ex‘s? Does anybody know?

 

[armd_recce]

As 6 said, the RSM / SSM / Tp WO is always a good place to start, but even better is to haul it out and beg forgiveness later =).
Policy varies by unit, for ex in mine webbing can be set up how you like it within reason, but woe be unto him who wears a non issue cap.
I‘d say it‘s a safe bet that no unit would allow totally non issue webbing/LBV.
But there‘s variation of course. I have noticed that many of our 031 friends sport knives on their webbing, which I am all in favour of. Please correct me if I‘m wrong, but I gather that in the inf this is more acceptable than in other trades?

 

[enfield]

Most guys carry some sort of knife, not on their webbing, for utility purposes - I have a crappy little knife to cut rope and stuff with with.

Cam paint? I doubt anyone cares, but the issue stuff works fine.

Load bearing? My unit allows chest rigs, but it all depends on the RSM.

 

[Spr Earl]

Engineer‘s are issued a knife,as for kit here at home regulation, but oversea‘s for personel clothing as long as it was green and did not clash with the uniform or op.‘s,as to load bearing vest‘s issue only as it designed for the kit that you must carry in the vest same goes for flack jacket‘s.

Carry the least and make it light and functionable.

 

[rceme_rat]

Not to mention that a lot of the combat clothing (unsure of certain kit items) is designed with properties that wouldn‘t be present in off-the-shelf gear -- reduced IR signature, e.g.

 

[enfield]

The 1982-pattern webbing has IR reducing features? The hockey puck-combat boots have a special quality? The Vietnam-era flak jackets o something useful beyond keep you warm?

This is the kit I use, and as far as I can tell, Canada deploys it‘s troops with.

I realize Clothe The SOldier and CADPAT supposedly have special qualities. However, to most of us CTS is just a wet dream.

 

[sgtdixon]

My unit‘s policy on non-issue kit is: If you are prepared to pack it in and not bitch about how uncomfortable and heavy it gets, Bring It.
I personally have a U.S. Harness (H-Type) with a canadian web belt. On the Two Shoulder straps there are on the Left my Knife and Flashlight(Crook) and on the right are my compass and cammie pouches. On the belt there is a cantten my Comfort Pouch (C7 mag pouch with cooking stuff hot sauce Etc.) my secondary knife my KFS, a butt pack, a Gasmask pouch with various stuffage. And my squadron says as long as i haul it all then have fun.

P.S. Art Eggleton is a Smuck
:sniper: ................................Art Eggleton

Signing off till i get my Self Heating Pizza in my rations
Sgt. Dixon

 

[armd_recce]

Hey there Sgt;
Good to see you put some thought into how you have your kit set up, keep that up if you go into the regs. Why not go for a complete as issued set of 82 patt to get yourself used to it?
Generally I like to keep my yoke free from flashlights and pouches in case I need to take a snap shot and can‘t get the butt under my harness. Both shoulders too - never know when you‘ll need to fire around a right hand corner.

And a word to the wise, perhaps it‘s better to slam the MND in your mess than on a public forum. No matter you opinion, he is our superior and loyalty to his office is not optional (remember, loyalty is demanded, respect is earned). It is the same thing as slamming your OC or CO publicly, albeit a few levels removed =)

 

[hhour48]

I understand, that it depends on each unit‘s degree of being "anal"...Some guy from LFAA on SOCNET forums has everything non-issue in the field, except for glove inners...

What about the CF general policy towards this?

I‘m asking primarily because I can get a really good deal on a LBV (made in OD), but what‘s the point of buying one, even really cheap, if I can‘t wear one? )

 

[Recce41]

Well folks in the real world you will wear issued kit! So all those who get away withit not you will not on tour, tasking with the reg force, or course, so please grow up. The RSMs of res regt.s may think its cool but its not. I‘ve have had soldier show up with a snipers scope for his C8. on one of my tours. Soon the loadbearing vest will be out to all, and theres nothing more dumb than a big Rambo knife on a belt.

Sgt J. CD,CDS com ( Airborne,Bold and Swift)

 

[RCA]

The key word here is ISSUE. You are issued kit for a reason. It gives you what you need. From where I come from the use of non-issue items is restricted. Almost all that you need or require is issued to you. particlarly for the jobs most of us do. (I‘m not talking operations.)

Call me anal or what ever, but I sure don‘t won‘t my battey to look like a rag-tag circus, (read lack of professionalism) which is the way some units look guessing from some of the comments posted here. Don‘t get me wrong. Peresonal comforts are you‘re own business. Location of items worn is also personal preference. But when it comes to webbing and unforms, you already have it.

as to knives--We already went thru THAT discussion and as for those who want to buy the "cool" stuff, the axiom is " a fool and his money are vsoon parted"

 

[armd_recce]

Originally posted by Recce41:
I‘ve have had soldier show up with a snipers scope for his C8. on one of my tours. Soon the loadbearing vest will be out to all, and theres nothing more dumb than a big Rambo knife on a belt.

Originally posted by RCA:
Call me anal or what ever, but I sure don‘t won‘t my battey to look like a rag-tag circus, (read lack of professionalism) which is the way some units look guessing from some of the comments posted here.

Ok, a late last comment after a parade night in the ‘unreal world‘...
Take a look at www.tactical.dk, a site I was directed to as a result of this forum. I look at that site and see the *example* of a professional jr NCO. He cares enough about his trade to create a website devoted to it, trial non issue gear (gasp, on his ISSUE weapon no less!) and goes with what suits him best. He went so far as to have his own LBV designed and made in the Danish pattern.
And what about the Brits? As long as it‘s in DPM and functional, you can wear it. You want your own LBV? Fine, go get it made as long as its DPM.

Ok, I hear the other members of the house saying "so what, that‘s their army, not ours!", and right you are. My point is, yes it may be wrong, yes we may not do it in the CF, but I wouldn‘t go around suggesting soldiers are unprofessional for it as seems to be the current attitude. Tell them to take the offending item off, but respect their *keen - ness* (yes, that‘s my new word). All commanders should be blessed with soldiers who care enough about their trade to go to the trouble of buying, testing and using non issue kit.

And yes a "big Rambo knife" is dumb if only in that it is not ideal for fighting. Every soldier should have a good fighting knife with them, and the bayonet ain‘t it. I will even concede that you will likely never use it in your career, but it fulfills 3 important roles just by being there
1. It confirms, in the most intimate terms, your status as a warrior, and reminds you that you job is the destruction of the EN
2. It encourages a warrior mentality by confirming that you are willing and able to literally close with and destroy the enemy, even nose to nose
3. It may one day be necessary, and ya don‘t have to feed it.

 

[ryemaybee]

Schwerpunkt...still holding out for issue hatchets?

 

[armd_recce]

Ahhh, c‘mon. You know that would be private purchase. Where ya gonna get brass tacks to decorate your tomahawk through the system?

 

[cagomez]

About the none issue kit stuff. When I was new (just out of course, never buy non issue stuff during course !) I was really into buying all the non issue stuff. But really, the Queen does give you everything you need, emphasis on "need". It really is a fifty fifty mix. The consensus at my unit is spend all the friggin money you want as long as you still look like a CDN soldier and a member of the unit. That means the same uniform, 82 pattern webbing, helmet and ugh, ruck sack. The only exception to this is for our sepearate Recce platoon that operates within our reg. They can get away with ghillie suits, fancy patrol packs and the type. In the rifle companies though we all look the same on the outside with few minor variations. The short members of our platoon got issued the old A frame style ruck cause the carbon mod frame was almost as tall as they were. A few guys modify their webbing but it is still issued stuff. some have two canteen holders and one guy moved all his mag pouches to one side (seems practical) but noby wheres LBV‘s. Ill admit I have bought a few of my own things but nothing extreme. I have a patrol bag but its the Canadian Peacekeeper type through the catalogue and I also have a camelbak and wool socks froma hiking store that dont turn into giant lint balls. A few guys bought goretex socks but all of it goes under the uniform. A few things I may purchase are knee pads but they to must go under the combat pants. I‘ll also admit to buying one of those big rambo knives but looking back it was a mistake. Its to big to carry and its always shoved in the snow shoe holders in my ruck. So basically thats it. In my unit you look like the rest. You can get by with the issue stuff, it wont kill you to wear it. Remember that the webbing/ kit is a part of the uniform so respect it. You dont want to look like a rag tag bunch of mercs. If deemed otherwise, ops etc, better stuff will be issued to you. Have faith in the system and quite dreaming abou that clothe the soldier crap.

 

[enfield]

I‘m sorry, but I have to adisagree with RCA‘s statement.
a) We are issued the kit we are due to budget restraints and political deals, NOT because it is the best equipment for the job. (unless having a ruck and webbing that are completely incompatible is a good thing)
b) All of what we need and require is not issued. The number of things that I‘ve been told to buy on my own is a long list, beginning with boot bands, PT kit, insoles, and working up to a waist belt for my ruck.
c) A quick glance at the ONLY war-time operation (and hence the only one that really matters) since Korea shows that the Canadian does look like a "rag-tag circus".
3PPCLI (and supporting elements) is wearing two types of load bearing kit, are painting their gear, and wear jackets they‘ve sewed themselves out of cam blankets. All necessary, but not actions that produce uniformity.

The British are a great example of non-issue stuff. Their issue kit is superior to ours, but you‘ll still have a hard time finding two soldiers that look exactly the same, especially in the Paras and RM. Looking a the offical RM gallery of photos from operations shows that just about every soldier is wearing a different type of chest rig/webbing/lad bearing vest. But yet some how they remain professional...

Personally, I do agree that the Militia goes to far sometimes - and I can think of a few guys I‘ve see that do look like a travelling circus. I also think it‘s a waste for Reservists to spend a fortune on high-speed gear for the couple weekends a year they go to the field. I think the example of RCR soldiers in Bosnia, on a freezing mountain having to keep their sleves rolled up because the rest of the battalion, in the warm valleys, was in summer dress is the opposite end of this spectrum.

 

[ender]

There is plenty of stuff that you need that the Queen doesn‘t give you.

For instance, the army issues incredibly crappy non-arch supporting insoles that mess up practically everyone‘s feet. You have to buy your own insoles.

One canteen of water is not sufficent for a ruck march. (I mean, you can survive, but really.) That‘s why a lot of people from my unit, including me, have bought camel backs. It‘s also a lot easier to drink from one of those that to get your canteen out and put it back whille your moving.

Also, I‘m of the opinion that everyone needs a knife and a gerber. Because I‘m an Engineer I have both and whenever I end up working with other trades they are always borrowing them off me. I do have a Field Engineer knife but I prefer my civvie pattern. I know people that have modified thier rucksack with clips like every single civilian backpack has. That seems like a good idea, i‘ll get around to it eventually.

So yes, the law says that you can‘t use any non-issue kit. But the rules also state that cutting the liner out of your beret is a chargeable offense. In the end it is what works for you, and what your superior will let you get away with.

 

[Andyboy]

Recce41 said:
"Well folks in the real world you will wear issued kit! So all those who get away withit not you will not on tour, tasking with the reg force, or course, so please grow up. The RSMs of res regt.s may think its cool but its not. I‘ve have had soldier show up with a snipers scope for his C8. on one of my tours. Soon the loadbearing vest will be out to all, and theres nothing more dumb than a big Rambo knife on a belt."

__________________________________________

Is this the real world you were referring to?

__________________________________________
What the troops are doing for themselves
Recently reported in the Calgary Herald:

Frustrated by having to wear boreal green camouflage uniforms in a desert environment, Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan began slapping brown latex paint onto their rifles, bulletproof vests and other equipment Thursday.

Contingent commander Lt.-Col. Pat Stogran termed the chameleon-like change by the 28 soldiers in one company of the Princess Patricia‘s Canadian Light Infantry an example of the initiative he expects from his soldiers. One infantry officer characterized it as traditional Canadian make-do.

"It‘s a case of improvise, adapt and overcome," said Maj. Mike Blackburn, commander of 5 Platoon, Bravo Company.

Blackburn‘s soldiers used all manner of techniques to copy the desert camouflage of their American colleagues.

Using paint scrounged from a source they refused to divulge, the soldiers drenched their fabric helmet covers, splashed their bulletproof vests, painted their black gun barrels and daubed the stocks of their machine guns.

To imitate the texture of the desert terrain, some soldiers poured fine brown sand onto the wet paint. Others covered sections of their rifles with desert-camouflage tape. They‘d purchased a $25 roll of the tape from a gun and military memorabilia store before leaving Edmonton.

"I don‘t suppose the government will be reimbursing us," said one soldier.

The browning of Blackburn‘s soldiers will now be copied by all 750 soldiers of the Canadian contingent, said Stogran.

"Camouflage is very much an individual thing. It is certainly in our bag of tricks to do this," he said.

The Canadian army unveiled its new line of desert camouflage battle gear this week, but the first uniforms aren‘t expected to be distributed to soldiers in the field until the summer, too late for the soldiers now in Afghanistan.

It‘s better to adapt than to whine, Stogran said.

"We have to focus on mission success and not cry about spilled milk," he said.

Make-do desert camouflage is nothing new for Canadians, one soldier said. Similar adaptations were made in Somalia but the

improvisations of Blackburn‘s soldiers go far beyond paint and tape.

Cpl. Chris Arnott was a walking example of the art of improvisation.

On his right shoulder, Arnott sported a small two-way radio, one of a pair purchased from Future Shop for $70. It will allow him to stay in touch with his section buddy when conditions allow unrestricted radio communication.

Arnott bought extra pouches so he could carry more magazines of ammunition for his assault rifle. Since his rifle is equipped with a grenade launcher, he also bought a $50 American vest designed to hold 36 grenades.

"The army gave us bandoleers to carry our grenades but bandoleers jump and jostle when we‘re moving," he explained.

Strapped to his right thigh were three more rifle ammunition pouches, stitched together by a friend in Edmonton. He can now carry a total of 13 magazines, each filled with 30 bullets.

Each of his ammunition pouches -- the ones issued to him by the army as well as his personal ones -- was held closed with a snap-fastener purchased from Mountain Equipment Co-op rather than the army-issue fastener, which he finds difficult to close.

Change was the order of the day Thursday. Some soldiers stripped the pouch pockets off the front of their jackets and sewed them onto their sleeves.

"If it‘s on the front of your jacket, you can‘t get into them once you‘ve put your bulletproof vest over top," one soldier explained.

Before he left Edmonton, Arnott also picked up a pair of kneepads similar to the ones supplied to American foot soldiers. At Mountain Equipment Co-op he purchased additional gloves. To put it all in, he had to buy an extra-large Co-op bag.

"I spent $300 of my own money," Arnott said. "It‘s worth it though, if it can add to my comfort, speed and safety."

Good for them. Shame on the Gov‘t for having to have them do it