No more rifles on drill/grad parade?

[Infanteer]

People are making assertions about drill on BMQ and somehow equating that with what the CAF does on a daily basis everyday all day.

...and this is somehow better than people making assertions that there is a causal link between ceremonial drill and discipline without offering any proof?

 

[Remius]

...and this is somehow better than people making assertions that there is a causal link between ceremonial drill and discipline without offering any proof?

There is plenty of proof, studies etc. Military instruction vs Civilian instruction has been studied quite a bit. And it’s quite literally in most modern military literature.

We also have a group that evaluates, assesses and develops our training systems. If drill was useless as a training aid that is part of creating the end product it would have been dropped. Not just by us but pretty much most of our allies. BMQs have already been shortened by removing some drill. But they have not removed all drill.

How we use it can certainly be re-evaluated. Personally for me, anything beyond basic drill (marching, halting, saluting etc) and it’s likely overkill. Fundamentals can be taught in a short period and then reinforced via routine activities. Like moving a course from one point to another. Or when addressing them in group settings.

Getting rid of drill on BMQ would be a mistake.

 

[Infanteer]

There is plenty of proof, studies etc. Military instruction vs Civilian instruction has been studied quite a bit. And it’s quite literally in most modern military literature.

Really, do you have any links to these studies? Google doesn't serve anything up aside from traditional assertions of fact.

We also have a group that evaluates, assesses and develops our training systems. If drill was useless as a training aid that is part of creating the end product it would have been dropped. Not just by us but pretty much most of our allies. BMQs have already been shortened by removing some drill. But they have not removed all drill.

Never underestimate the power of commitment bias.

I'm not saying I am for eliminating ceremonial drill, I just question the veracity of claims that it is intrinsically linked to developing discipline as I have never seen any studies that show this to be true. People simply assume it is a given.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Ceremonial close order drill with rifles is literally 1700s battle drill.

I get it, I'm taking the piss

Like I said, we gotta modernize!

 

[Grimey]

Like this?

To 'camp' for me. This is better.

 

[Infanteer]

PARADE - SCAN AND BREATHE!

ONE - TWO, THREE - ONE!

 

[Good2Golf]

Really, do you have any links to these studies? Google doesn't serve anything up aside from traditional assertions of fact.

Maybe you’re part of the 5% of Canadians being ‘pre-C-18’d’ by Google?

 

[Blackadder1916]

The argument for (and against) drill is nothing new. It's probably been debated on these means before. For interest sake, let's go back to 1934 when "social media" was a letter to the editor. Thanks to The Regimental Rogue (@Michael OLeary).

Modern Infantry Discipline (1934)

. . . What then are the grounds on which Close-order drill can be defended as the most suitable basis for the discipline and training of the infantry in 1934? Let the supporters of close-order drill argue as they like: they cannot dodge the plain fact that in order to produce the soldier trained for the requirements of the 1934 battlefield they find themselves advocating that as an essential preliminary he should be grounded in the admittedly obsolete tactical formations of 1734. Nor, when their attention is called to it can they fail to be struck by a development of close-order drill which presents a remarkable military paradox, the complete dissimilarity between our ceremonial and tactical organization: in battle we clamour for fire power; in conference we pay tribute to it; on parade we hide away our fire power, the machine and Lewis guns, as if we were ashamed of them, and parade as four companies of cannon fodder. And echo answers, Why? . . .

A Defence of Close-Order Drill (1934)

In "Modern Infantry Discipline," in the last number of the Journal, "A Field Officer" argues with such an air of sweet reasonableness that his kindly strictures upon us reactionary pedants, who believe in close-order drill for our infantry, seem moderate and restrained. If his arguments are sound, we surely deserve far harsher treatment. But, though much that he writes is true enough, and some of it admirable, his main arguments are based on a collection of so many fallacies that one hardly knows where to begin attacking them. Let us, however, enumerate a few of them in the order in which they occur, before giving our own views on the value of close-order drill.

Throughout the whole of his article "A Field Officer" appears to labour under a general confusion of the great fundamental task of making the soldier's soul, if one may use the expression, of turning the civilian into the sort of man we need in the infantry, with the particularized task of teaching him how to fight, of teaching him the use of his arms, and the day's fashion in tactics. The task of turning a man into a good foot-soldier is one of fundamental principles: the task of teaching the fighting man how to fight is one that must vary with every development of weapons, tactics, and the general science of war. . . .

What's different from today? Besides the full sentences and proper punctuation.

 

[Remius]

Really, do you have any links to these studies? Google doesn't serve anything up aside from traditional assertions of fact.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13624806211031248#body-ref-bibr41-13624806211031248-6

You can dig into the references as to drill as part of discipline.

Never underestimate the power of commitment bias.

I'm not saying I am for eliminating ceremonial drill, I just question the veracity of claims that it is intrinsically linked to developing discipline as I have never seen any studies that show this to be true. People simply assume it is a given.

And yet Trudy was advocating for the elimination of all drill. Without really knowing why we do it on BMQs in the first place.

As I said, basic drill still achieves the same aim. So no need to teach advanced drill and even things like slow marching etc are not needed.

It also accomplishes several things at the same time, is inexpensive, easy to instruct (when properly shown) and requires very little in terms of space and logistics.

 

[btrudy]

Military training systems have been studied ad nauseam. If drill was useless you can bet that most professional fighting forces would have dropped it by now as a building block for discipline.

Right, because militaries are typically open to change in the way they do things, and totally never continue doing things solely because it's a tradition.

 

[Remius]

Right, because militaries are typically open to change in the way they do things, and totally never continue doing things solely because it's a tradition.

No it can and does change. The amount of drill has been curtailed to a certain extent. So has the length of BMQs.

How many times have we switched our junior leadership course standards because of change?


We literally just changed the dress regs. Or did you miss that? Women can serve in any trade now, LGBTQ can openly serve without fear of reprisal or arrest. All changes. And it continues to do so. The CAF isn’t as intransigent as you make it out to be.

What you fail to realise is that the CAF does change all the time and sometimes they are the vanguard of that change.

You hate tradition. We know. Not everything is a tradition. And not every tradition needs to be eliminated because it offends you or you don’t like it.

 

[OldSolduer]

OK so what happens with the Guards of Honour for foreign dignitaries, The Royal Family etc?

I have been the Guard Sergeant Major for two significant people - and in the second one we formed a guard of Royal Winnipeg Rifles and a guard of RCAF personnel. As expected the RCAF guard was a bit behind but after a few hours they were as good as any Army guard.

I was damned proud of all of them and congratulated them all for their outstanding effort.

Ok so lets say the King is visiting - does the CAF say "uh sorry we don't do rifle drill anymore"?

LIKE it or not Drill and Ceremonial is part of being in the military.

 

[Infanteer]

OK so what happens with the Guards of Honour for foreign dignitaries, The Royal Family etc?

I have been the Guard Sergeant Major for two significant people - and in the second one we formed a guard of Royal Winnipeg Rifles and a guard of RCAF personnel. As expected the RCAF guard was a bit behind but after a few hours they were as good as any Army guard.

I was damned proud of all of them and congratulated them all for their outstanding effort.

Ok so lets say the King is visiting - does the CAF say "uh sorry we don't do rifle drill anymore"?

LIKE it or not Drill and Ceremonial is part of being in the military.

You can always teach them if they need it.

 

[Remius]

You can always teach them if they need it.

It’s a lot easier and far less time consuming if they have a baseline to work with.

 

[dapaterson]

It’s a lot easier and far less time consuming if they have a baseline to work with.

So in an average year, how many military personnel participate in a Royal guard out of the whole CAF population?

Fewer than go to clothing stores to exchange a pair of pants.

 

[Infanteer]

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13624806211031248#body-ref-bibr41-13624806211031248-6

You can dig into the references as to drill as part of discipline.

I see a lot of references to Foucault, and prison guards, and nothing saying drill makes better, more disciplined soldiers. Nice try though.

To quote Jerry Maguire

 

[Furniture]

It’s a lot easier and far less time consuming if they have a baseline to work with.

Is it though?

Teaching people who haven't done rifle drill in 10 years how to do it, isn't much different from teaching them from scratch.

Maybe the combat arms types do drill and rifle drill a lot, but the last time I did rifle drill was pushing 15 years ago. If I need to do it again, I'll be starting from about zero... yet I still manage to be an effective member of the CAF.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Fewer than go to clothing stores to exchange a pair of pants.

In fairness Clothing Stores is one of busiest sections on most bases...

 

[Remius]

Is it though?

Teaching people who haven't done rifle drill in 10 years how to do it, isn't much different from teaching them from scratch.

Maybe the combat arms types do drill and rifle drill a lot, but the last time I did rifle drill was pushing 15 years ago. If I need to do it again, I'll be starting from about zero... yet I still manage to be an effective member of the CAF.

Yes it is. And I say that as someone who has had to refresh a great many people.

One could use that argument for removing weapons handling from BMQ and teach them only when work up happens.

I see a lot of references to Foucault, and prison guards, and nothing saying drill makes better, more disciplined soldiers. Nice try though.

To quote Jerry Maguire

I told you to dig into the references. There are specific references to drill and discipline. Smith being one.

This is second time I’ve seen you in this thread dismiss things when you ask for them and they get provided.

 

[Infanteer]

Yes it is. And I say that as someone who has had to refresh a great many people.

One could use that argument for removing weapons handling from BMQ and teach them only when work up happens.

I told you to dig into the references. There are specific references to drill and discipline. Smith being one.

I did. The Smith reference is a commentary on Foucault.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/17540290802479186

Just because an academic puts drill and discipline in the same sentence doesn't make it so. It's academic theoretical psycho-babble, not something objective or empirical.