New guy, introduction and a question or two.

[inferno]

Howdy folks.

Just found this forum, (well found it before and assumed that it was exclusively army) we all know what assuming does. Makes an ass-of-u-and-me.

Anyways, I've been thinking very seriously over the last 3 months about becoming a pilot for the Canadian forces. I've always enjoyed flying, and wanted to be a pilot. Furthermore I've always wanted to be in the millitary.

I really wish there was more information out there on the 'net about peoples experiances and such, this forum seems to be some where along the right track. (I've got lots more reading to do. ) I think I've read ALL the DND pages back to front 3 times each. They aren't incredibly forthcoming or descriptive, they seem written for a purpose, perhaps to get one to talk face to face with a recruiter?

Onwards, I'm a 3rd year History major at the University of Victoria, with a minor in ethics, I was always afraid of the commitment associated with the forces, until a revalation several months ago, when I realised that the majority of people work a job they hate for the majority of their lives. I don't want to be another grumpy desk pilot. I want to be a pilot.

I've gotten lots of good advice from friends, family, people I know who are in the forces. (I think they are getting sick of me. )

I've read/talked all about Aircrew Selection, the tests, the basic, the language training, the flight school and then the remainder of the training on jet, rotary, or multi-engined.

Now about me:

I'm 21, my family moved to Canada from England when I was 4, I have British and Canadian citizenship, I like to think I'm a good kid, I've never been in trouble, don't do drugs.

My dad is a pilot, he just built an airplane in our garage with LESS tools then I used to do a V8 engine swap on my Jeep. (Ya it's scary as hell, I still don't know how he managed to get mine in it. Twice.) His father was a pilot, he joined at my age, in 1939, in Britain. He flew Typhoon bomber interceptors and was shot down and killed in 1945 over Germany as Acting Squadron Leader.

I'm pretty handy with tools, I like working with my hands and I feel like I've built my Jeep 3 times over from the ground up. I enjoy video games, and I'm fairly good at them. Right now I work as a lifegaurd. I have my Occupational First Aid lvl 3, I had no problem getting it or any other of my first aid corses. I feel this will be one of my major bonuses when in training. Not the first aid, but I've got a hunch that the training/learning style will be very familiar to me. (Anyone want to weigh in here?)

From talking to a friend of the family who is a 25 something Navy Lieutenant, I've learned quite a bit about the Basic, and the French language portion of training.

Right now, my biggest question is on the contracts that I will have to sign eventually. The impression I got from the recruiter who came to UVic, was that upon completetion of flight training, before I was awarded my wings, I would sign a contract for a 7 year term of service. This doesn't worry me. Heck if it was a 15 year contract that wouldn't worry me either. What I am concerned about is the attrition rate. I know the entire system is very competitive. After Basic, and 2nd language, if I were to 'washout' 1/2 way through the flight training, what commitment would I still have to the DND? What I don't want to do, (however positive I think and improbable it would be to not pass the flight training) is to wash out and be committed to 3,5,7 years of service as something other then a pilot. (Wether it be an administrator, or truck driver.)

Secondary question: I read on here somewhere I think that most pilots recently have been biased towards helicopters/multi-engine, is this true? I originally wanted to do something with helicopters. (MediVac? SAR?.. much to the disproval of my dad. (fixed wing junkie, I think helicopters scare him  ;D) But I'm not opposed to flying Jets, with multi engine at the bottom of the pile, yet still miles above working a 9-5 middle management job.  ;D

Sorry about the length here guys, I guess I got kind of carried away.
Thanks in advance.

 

[TheCheez]

Greetings

I think youve got it right about the contract. The one I signed was for 9 years but that works out to around 7 after wings. Im not 100% certain on the details. Also be aware there could be significant delays between training. Right now pretty much everything is backed up including Moose Jaw. About the only course you wont have to wait for is primary flight training. I dont expect to have my wings until sometime in (late) 2007. If anyone washes out of flight training you meet with your career manager where (Ive heard) they like to wave the infantry and artillery flags around alot but there are a great deal of Nav and ATC who were in flight training at the start of their careers.

Maybe a career manager can confirm or deny this one but at BOTC the running plan to get out of your contract was to ask for trades which werent hiring. Long story short, if you really really really want out I cant imagine the CF trying to keep you. Wait a minute, yes I could.

Second... Jets are the hardest to get. Even if youre the best of your course if the instructors feel youre not cut out to be a fighter pilot you wont be going. The guys who want jets, and are fighter pilots that Ive met are 100% jets. If its not your passion dont bother cause youll tire quickly of the routine.

On the other hand, helos are where the most pilots are needed right now. This is for the simple reason that we have lots of airframes and each one needs 2 pilots to get off the ground. Talk to tac hel guys, they love it. If you want helos, youll probably get em. Multi might be taking more by the time you get to this point but I wouldnt worry about it if you dont want it. That said all the pilots Ive met enjoy their jobs be it multi, helo or jets. Dont join with the intention of only flying 1 type cause it could happen that you wont get it and a poor attitude due to that isnt going to help anyone.


Cheers
Four-bees!

 

[043]

Not many pilots in the Army.

Try www.Airforce.ca

 

[big bad john]

Welcome, there are quite a few piolets on this forum.  Good luck.

 

[Zoomie]

Inferno,

My response may not do your initial post justice - today - give me a week when I get back home to Comox and I can fully address your concerns.

Important point to note:  After serving your BE (basic engagement) - which is either 2 or 3 years - you owe the CF absolutely no obligatory service until the day that your Wings are pinned on your chest.  If you wash out of any phase of flight training - you can leave the CF - a second option will always be offered to you - but there is no pressure or obligation to stay.  I can't promise you that you won't fail - I know that the entire 4 years that I was in the training cycle it was a constant worry for me - you need to be able to live on stress in the Airforce - you can't let it eat you up.

Good luck -

Feel free to post any more questions/concerns in this forum as there are at least 4-5 CF pilots on these means.

 

[inferno]

Thanks for the reply Zoomie, how's Comox? (in general.  ;D)

I heard that assignment to the SAR squadron is a PITA.. true?

I would take whatever I can get inregards to flying. Jets would be just plain cool. Helicopters facinate me, and multi engine seems like it would be fun too.

You answered my question perfectly.

I have no intention to fail, and although I'm not exactly a whiz in the books (failed uni-math... twice) if the subject interests me, I can get a 75-80% without studying. I did all my first aid courses, (from Bronze Medallion, through Cross, CPR-C, NLS, LSI, OFA3, if all that means anything to anyone.) without studying. Flying really interests me, and I feel I could apply myself/study hard.

I just really like to cover my bases incase of the 'what if' problem.

Is it a good or bad sign when every question I ask people only solidifies my resolve?

Honestly the only thing that I haven't thought "well thats awsome" when I heard it was that it was a ~10 year commitment (3 training 7 service) but that hardly slowed me down at all.

Now I'm going to go read some more of this forum.  ;D

 

[Garbageman]

Honestly the only thing that I haven't thought "well thats awsome" when I heard it was that it was a ~10 year commitment (3 training 7 service) but that hardly slowed me down at all.

Try to rethink this one.  Instead of looking at it as a 10 year commitment, think of it as a GUARANTEED job for 10 years!  Nowhere in private industry can that offer be made (especially for us Artseys!).

 

[Inch]

Zoomie my man, not entirely correct, Officers don't sign BEs, or at least it's not a common occurrence. SEs or SSEs are the officer contracts, and I believe most of them are for about 9 years, I know mine was but I'm sure there are different ones out there.

Gents, don't get confused between the obligatory service post-wings and a contract. You are on a contract but unless you're on obligatory service, you can leave anytime you want, your release could take up to 6 months or as little as a month. When you get your wings, you begin a 7 year restricted release term, which for all intents and purposes, is obligatory and you cannot leave, I'm sure there are exceptions but not many. You must be on a contract the whole time you're in the military, so if your SSE expires before your restricted release date, you'll be required to sign either an SE or an IE to cover to the end of your restricted release or beyond. Example.....my 9 year SSE was to expire on the 15th of June 2008, my restricted release date is the 2nd of Apr 2011 (7 years after I got my wings). So I was in a predicament where I had to sign either an SE or an IE since my contract would have been up before I was able to leave the CF, I chose the IE, I'm on a contract now until I'm pensionable.

I'll second Zoomie's worries about failing out, I came as close as anyone could, so I'll be the first to tell you, it's not an easy road but it's totally worth the work.   ;D

Oh yeah, one more thing, helicopters kick ass!

 

[Good2Golf]

Inferno, it's a good go!  Some of the guys a bit closer to the HR world might be able to confirm what happens before wings if you depart before wings grad.  I can't see anybody being locked in for 7 years if they weren't qualified in the MOC (mil occupation code...p.s. get used to acronyms!)

More to come when I get a bit more time in front of the screen....out to V-day dinner!

Cheers,
Duey

 

[inferno]

Thanks for clarifying the contract info.

As for the picture... awsome, the only thing I'm concerned about is how flat it is. ;D I don't think I've ever been ANYWHERE that's that flat. Is it true you can see your dog run away for 3 days?

 

[aesop081]

Oh yeah, one more thing, helicopters kick ass!

IF YOU CAN'T HOVER, YOU'RE QUEER !

 

[Inch]

Thanks for clarifying the contract info.

As for the picture... awsome, the only thing I'm concerned about is how flat it is. ;D I don't think I've ever been ANYWHERE that's that flat. Is it true you can see your dog run away for 3 days?

That's Portage la Prairie, and I wouldn't know, I don't have a dog. It is pretty flat though, Moose Jaw is the same except south of the base there's some hills.

 

[Good2Golf]

Inferno, to give you a snapshot of the process:

- drop in the recruiting center and find out about the DEO (direct entry officer) entry program
- well, finish off at UVic...(I went to Royal Roads in the 80's and LOVE Victoria...found my wife there! )
- you'll go to the ASC (aircrew selection center, I think it's at Trenton, now but it was in Toronto when I went) to determine aircrew aptitude.  At this point, you may be asked to select: pilot, navigator or either, on a form.  You'll get lots of opinions on what to put down...how to "play the game", etc... but I say just put down what you want.  If you only want to be a pilot and not a navigator, then say so.  I did...I did not want to be a nav if I wasn't going to be a pilot.  Some guys thought it was some sort of test or mind game but I try to be a straight up guy and I took the question at face value. 
- if you get approved for aircrew, then you carry on and enrol in the Forces
- you go to the basic officers course (BOQ) in St-Jean, Qc, just south of Montreal for about 13 weeks.
- passing BOQ, it's a stay in St-Jean for second language training (SLT) until you reach a minimum standard of French (can't recall what it is at the moment)
- somewhere here you will get a basic air force indoctrination course (not quite sure of where it fits in now, sometimes it's flexible...not exact points in the path
- next, primary flying training in Portage La Prairie (the background to the JetRanger photo above)  don't buy a dog...you'll see it run away for 3 days! 
- passing primrary leads to the next phase of flight training, on the Harvard II (single-engine turboprop trainer, tandem (front/back) config with bang seats)
- passing the training on the Harvard II will result in your being selected for one of three "streams" of training; advanced training on the Hawk jet (still in Moose Jaw), mutli-engine training on the King Air or helo training on the Jet Ranger (both back in Portage La Prairie
- on the completion of these final phases, you will graduate and be given your Wings.  I believe that this is the point that you are then required to serve for the obligatory 7 years.
- now it's on to one of the operational training units (OTU's) for an aircraft type consistent with your final wings training (CF-18's or staying to instruct in MJ) after flying the Hawk; Herc (transport), Aurora (sub hunter) or the new fixed-wing SAR (search and rescue) aircraft; and for helos, either the Griffon (a militarized Bell 412), the Cormorant (a version of the EH-101), or the Sikorsky Cyclone (replacement of the Sea King).
- after all that, you'll be off to your operational unit to fly.

There are some significant transitions happening regarding what we call the "training mill", or just, "the mill".  Much of the training is contracted out to commercial service providers and many of the contracts are coming up to their expiry, so there are some changes that may take place in the future.  I understand that the Sligsby used in primary flying training in Portage may be replaced...I've heard some mention the Katana, but there has been nothing firm.  Also in Portage, the multi-engine and helo contracts are being revised...folks are saying that the Beech King Air currently used will remain.  On the helo side, there is going to be a change to two helos, a single-engine basic "starter" helo and a mutli-engine, IFR (instrument flight rules) certified advanced helo trainer.

Some other guys who are closer to the training mill may be able to provide greater detail or corrections to what I've provided here, but it should give you a feel for the layout of pilot training.

For folks who look at the 7 years as a negative, you could loook at it as a bonus...a guaranteed job for a bit.  Since the clock starts counting at wings grad and you would have to conduct type training at an OTU (12 to 18 months is not unheard of to be qualified on operational type and some aircraft are waiting a year or two before even getting on the aircraft).  Things will change in the future as more of the aircraft and training contracts are worked out...

Cheers,
Duey

 

[inferno]

Excellent information guys.

Now some more questions. ;D

#1) Deployment: how long are standard deployments for you guys, and how often do you get to go on them? I know navy guys mostly, and they head out for 6 months, then in for 6 months, but it's almost constant. Is active duty in foreign land better/worse? You train all the time for it, so there must be some kind of huge relief when you finally get to use it? Do you get to fly more?


#2) Time: What exactly do you do with ALL your time. I think I read on here 150 hours a year was average for a helo pilot? Assuming a 48 week year, 5 days a week, that's 240 days a year, with only 150 hours? 8 hours in the standard work day? Is the rest left up to training, simulators, officework, paperwork, sitting around talking? I assume every day is regimented with so much time to PT, and so much time to this and that.. but it still seems like theres lots of time left?

TIA folks..
This forum has single handedly been the BEST source of information so far.

 

[Good2Golf]

Inferno,

Re: deployments...it "depends".  For tac hel, our last deployment (Bosnia) had guys going out on 56-day blocks, which most guys liked better than the 6-monthers in days gone bye.  This was because Bosnia was a mature, "established" theatre, tac hel was there from 98 to 04 and the first 6 or 7 rotos (rotations) were 6 months long, then in 2002 we made the case for the same amount of time for a unit but breaking up the individual member's deployment into more managable blocks (56 days).  As a general rule, initial deployments are 6 months before we get the "lay of the land" of a particular operation.

Re: Flying time, most tac hel guys run between 175 and 240 hrs / year, depending on units and tasks (instructing at the CH146 Griffon OTU, flying at a Tac Hel Squadron, flying with specialized units, etc...)  Right off the top, there will likely be about 20-25% of your time taken on "PD" (professional development) work that includes the officer professional military education (OPME) program that includes a series of PD courses to expand your military knowledge.  Oh, now you get to the flying...   Learning the aircraft, learning the role, upgrading to aircraft captain, then section/det commander, etc...  You'd be surprised how busy you'll be planning missions then doing the flying, debriefing afterwards and working on 'supporting' skills (i.e. fieldcraft, etc...) all part of the greater move towards more expeditinary forces...

Cheers,
Duey

 

[Inch]

Excellent information guys.

Now some more questions. ;D

#1) Deployment: how long are standard deployments for you guys, and how often do you get to go on them? I know navy guys mostly, and they head out for 6 months, then in for 6 months, but it's almost constant. Is active duty in foreign land better/worse? You train all the time for it, so there must be some kind of huge relief when you finally get to use it? Do you get to fly more?

In MH, we do the same deployments as the navy. We're embarked on the ship and sail for as long as they do. We've currently got an AirDet on the HMCS Montreal that's out on the standing NATO fleet for 6 months. We've also had quite a few guys go to the Gulf on multiple occasions in the last 3 years. The Toronto just got back last summer.

#2) Time: What exactly do you do with ALL your time. I think I read on here 150 hours a year was average for a helo pilot? Assuming a 48 week year, 5 days a week, that's 240 days a year, with only 150 hours? 8 hours in the standard work day? Is the rest left up to training, simulators, officework, paperwork, sitting around talking? I assume every day is regimented with so much time to PT, and so much time to this and that.. but it still seems like theres lots of time left?

TIA folks..
This forum has single handedly been the BEST source of information so far.

Actually, it's less than 240, after 5 years you get 25 days of leave (5 weeks) and there's 10 Stat holidays (2 weeks) plus a few special days here and there so you probably get closer to 8 weeks off a year which makes for 220 working days a year. In most cases you'll fly 200+ hrs, in MH, we have to fly at least 120 hrs a year to maintain our currency so we should never fly less than that, if we're deployed, I've heard of guys getting 400hrs in 6 months if they have a serviceable Sea King.

It's certainly not regimented, you're an officer and you're on your own. You're responsible enough to be prepared for your next flight and do PT on your own as well as the stuff that Duey mentioned, especially reading Aircraft Operating Instructions (AOIs) since the better you know your machine the better pilot you'll be. You're usually not required to hang around for 8 hours if you're not doing anything, it all balances out in the end because you'll be putting in 12+ hr days to go along with those short days. Yes, there is lots of time left to sit around and talk about flying, we do "what if" scenarios that are pretty good since it gets you thinking about possible emergencies when flying, and you'll probably have a secondary duty as well such as working the Ops desk or Flight Safety, etc. It may seem like there's a lot of time and you will be bored at times but for the most part, there's always something to do or read or practice.