NDA reference

[sidemount]

I've had a look through the site and some range standing orders but I can't seem to find the reference.

We've all heard the line "its an offence to remove ammo from a CAF range".....but what is the offence, I can't seem to find something suitable in the NDA either. Anyone have a specific reference?

(this is to settle an argument with someone else  ;D )

Thanks!

 

[ModlrMike]

If Range Standing Orders say "thou shalt not" that should be sufficient. The charge would then possibly be disobedience of a lawful command, or negligent performance of a military duty (failed to comply with an order, directive or instruction).

 

[dapaterson]

If you wished to pursue via the civilian court system, there's section 298:

Unlawful disposal, removal or possession of property

298. (1) Every person who
(a) unlawfully disposes of or removes any property,
(b) when lawfully required, refuses to deliver up any property that is in the possession of that person, or
(c) without lawful cause, the proof of which lies on that person, has possession of any property,
is guilty of an offence and liable, on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding one hundred dollars for each offence.
Definition of “property”
(2) For the purposes of this section, “property” means any public property under the control of the Minister, non-public property and property of any of Her Majesty’s Forces or of any forces cooperating therewith.
R.S., c. N-4, s. 255.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Can someone tell me where it says we have to:

1- Make a declaration after going to the range; and,

2- When making the declaration, call a Cpl "Sir".

 

[ModlrMike]

1. Should be covered in Range Standing Orders and/or your Range Instruction; and

2. You're actually making the declaration to the Officer Conducting the Exercise (OCE) or CO, not the Cpl. The Cpl is just the conduit, representative and witness.

 

[sidemount]

Thanks Mike, that seems appropriate.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Can someone tell me where it says we have to:

1- Make a declaration after going to the range; and,

2- When making the declaration, call a Cpl "Sir".

1- without looking, I would say, BGL 381- Ranges and Trg Safety.
2- I don't know about you, but I say "Cpl". Never been corrected, yet...

 

[SupersonicMax]

The only time I had to do declarations is on small arms range.  Been to A/G ranges (in the air and on the ground) and I never had to do this... 

As far as calling a Cpl "Sir", I was told by said Cpl to call him Sir after calling him Cpl.  I didn't bring the issue up, because I have better things to spend my time on, but I find it awkward a Major or really anybody has to call a Cpl, Sir.  I get he "represents" whoever but he is not that person.  I represent the Wing Commander on occasion, but I don't ask people to call me Col.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I don't do declarations on air ranges, either.

Never had my pockets checked for a torpedo. 

We also don't do it on a door gun range, but if we ran the same range on the ground, we would. So go figure...

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

B-GL-381-001-TS-000
General Small Arms Handeling Rules For Conventional Ranges

At the conclusion of the exercise, all weapons and magazines, including spares, shall be unloaded and inspected. All participants of the exercise shall give a verbal declaration to the OIC Practice.

I don't do a declaration every time I set up an Ammo issue for a unit or blow an EOD. It is what it is.

 

[FJAG]

1- without looking, I would say, BGL 381- Ranges and Trg Safety.
2- I don't know about you, but I say "Cpl". Never been corrected, yet...

You are correct re item 1. For example, para 21. of Chapter 3 Conventional Ranges states that "At the conclusion of the exercise, all weapons and magazines, including spares, shall be unloaded and inspected. All participants of the exercise shall give a verbal declaration to the OIC Practice." Similar provisions apply for other ranges.

Re item 2 the reason one says "Sir" is that the declaration goes to the OIC practice who is generally an officer. It may be a cpl or sgt going down the line on behalf of the OIC but if he is present at the time (as he should be) the proper declaration should end with "Sir"

There is no specific NDA reference but, in effect, a false declaration or other offence such as removing live ammunition could be charged under various provisions of the NDA as appropriate; for example s 114 Stealing, 115 Receiving, s 124 negligent performance of military duty, s 129 act or neglect to the prejudice of good order or discipline.

S 298 of the NDA is only of use in situations where the Code of Service Discipline was not applicable at the time of the offence. The CSD applies to regular force members at all times and on reservists when the situations at NDA s 60(1)(c) apply. Since declarations are given on ranges during exercises the reservist would most probably be subject to the CSD.

 

[Blackadder1916]

As far as calling a Cpl "Sir", I was told by said Cpl to call him Sir after calling him Cpl.  . . .

Why do you call the Cpl "Sir"?

 

[SupersonicMax]

FCAG,  are you suggesting that if I represent someone from a higher rank, it would be appropriate for me to ask them to address me by their title and rank?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

If he's the OIC of the range, sure.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Funny thing is that at the time, I was the A/CO of the unit owning the range and conducting range training.  I guess I had to call one of my subordinates sir!

As a note, why is there an unwritten rule only applicable to range OICs?

 

[PuckChaser]

Is this so degrading to you it needs an entire thread?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Heaven forbid he should look down at the pions conducting a range.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I am not looking down at people running the range but rather at why do they get to call themselves something they are not.  If there is a rule somewhere (which is what I am asking), then so be it.  Otherwise, I do not think it is appropriate.  But they are not the only ones representing someone warranting a different title and yet, they are the only ones making people call them that title.

PuckChaser, I did not start the thread.  Just asking simple questions,  don't need to get upset.

 

[dangerboy]

Funny thing is that at the time, I was the A/CO of the unit owning the range and conducting range training.  I guess I had to call one of my subordinates sir!

As a note, why is there an unwritten rule only applicable to range OICs?

It is not only applicable to range OICs, it is a standard protocol when on parade.  You call out the rank of the highest person on parade if your name is called ( for NCMs it is usually just Sir/Ma'am). Unfortunately I  am on ex and don't have the drill manual to give you the reference.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

It wouldn't matter if SSM wrote the pub himself. He'd still refute the literature. You could say the sky looks blue and he'd argue. One notch above troll