ND

[KevinB]

The idea that a PWT magically qualifies people to be safe is assinine.  Competance comes from exposure - Perfect Practise makes Perfect...

The concept of issuing some weapons ONLY overseas is insane -- for the first time the soliders have to deal with that weapon is in a 24/7 live ammo scenario.

I know from running some guys in my Platoon thru TOET's over and over again in the states prior to live fire kill house training that a PWT does not mean anything for competancy.  Secondly from my own experience with oberserving ND's - common sense isn't.

 

[axeman]

Quote
Or you could just remember to put your weapon on safe before going on patrol........ just an idea maybe?!!!! We all have thumbs that can very flip that switch on the C7.  It isn't all that difficult.


well there is a problem with that .with a C7 or deriaitive you have to have a round cranked up the spout or it cocked before it goes on safe . hey kev b remember all the youall freaking out in khandahar because our weapons wer not on safe...

 

[KevinB]

The Americans have a hard time gasping our ideas on weapon safety...

The WORST idea I have seen if the safety on w/o a round in the chamber - two things happen 1) you end up with a round in the chamber and not know it (not a bad thing in isolation - but where some point weapons...) 2) You need to use your weapon - you quickly either flip off the safety and get a click (always bad) or you pull your cocking handle and go to shoot but the safety is on.

I am a big fan of simply readying the weapon and putting it on safe.
1) It is available
2) It is safe (barring mechanical issues - and you are enusre for proper functioning fo your weapon)

We always got a bigger "OMG" from people watching us at clearance bays when a casing popped out...

Even better, be in a unit with Force Exemption Status and leave it "hot" the entire time.

 

[GerryCan]

The idea that a PWT magically qualifies people to be safe is assinine.

Sorry, I left out TOET's.

It's not much practice, or perfect practice for that matter but it's a good start.

I too agree that it's idiotic to give people loaded weapons they're not familiar with handling on a daily basis.

 

[kyleg]

Hi all,
I completely agree that a person should be intimately familiar with his/her weapon(s). That said, there is more to avoiding an ND than just doing the drills. It takes concentration, a certain level of common sense, and a dash of memory.

Firstly, the person should know whther or not a round should pop out when clearing the weapon (obviously this only applies to closed-bolt weapons). If I know that I readied my weapon before a patrol and I don't see a round come out of my ejection port upon clearing it... well it doesn't take a genius to figure out that it's probably still in the spout.

Second - and I see people skipping this part way too often - one should visually INSPECT the chamber. Not just glance. It honestly scares me when I see Joe Blow Bloggins go through his unload procedure and shift his eyes towards the ejection port without actually SEEING if it's clear. I remember hearing one guy's excuse for his ND on course: "I couldn't tell if it was clear because it's too dark out."  : If you're unlodaing your weapon I would assume that you're in a relatively safe area and you could take a peek inside the chamber with a flashlight (correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't think of any situation where this would not apply).

If people would actually THINK about their drills and why they are necessary I'm sure a lot of NDs would be avoided (among other preventable accidents, but that's for another thread).

Cheers,
Pinky

 

[KevinB]

Hence why you FEEL the chamber if you cannot see in...

White light is not required.

 

[HollywoodHitman]

My solution......Oh God why is it that I am so often tempted by sarcasm......

Ok, agreed Gents, the weapons handling drills CF wide are seriously lacking. The problem comes with not being actively engaged in combat operations, in hot locations for so long. The clearing bay Naus in VK used to drive me nuts. But then I saw some of the glue bags who were actually armed out there, and I was of the mindset that if they simply left their weapons in their holsters, then nobody would get hurt........

Charging people for ND's while using blanks is a good place to start. The simple fact of the matter is, we (and yes even the Inf) are not given the exposure to the weapons systems with any sort of accountability for long enough periods of time.

The idea of a soldier having a loaded weapon in Canada scares people......Until that soldier, who is more scared of their own weapon than they are of the threat, is suddenly carrying a hot weapon in a hot area........THATS when the accidents happen. Personal accountability and weapons drills are not driven home nearly enough today.

 

[kyleg]

Hence why you FEEL the chamber if you cannot see in...

White light is not required.

Thought that was frowned upon based on the safety issue of putting your finger where it might be crushed by the bolt. But hey, you're the expert, I'm just here to learn (that's not sarcasm, btw ).

Cheers,
Pinky

 

[Haggis]

Thought that was frowned upon based on the safety issue of putting your finger where it might be crushed by the bolt. But hey, you're the expert, I'm just here to learn (that's not sarcasm, btw ).

Cheers,
Pinky

I just completed the night PWT a couple of evenings ago and had a stoppage during the first practise.  I can attest that without white light, feeling in ther chamber is the ONLY way you're going to know what went wrong.  I did it, cleared the stoppage and went on.  I'd do it again, too.

The simple fact of the matter is, we (and yes even the Inf) are not given the exposure to the weapons systems with any sort of accountability for long enough periods of time.

Bang on!  Constant practise is the ONLY way you get good and proficient. Unfamiliarity breeds fear. I saw NSE soldiers so scared of an ND charge that they put tape across the tops of thier magazines.  That being said, familiarity breeds complacency.  Cops have more NDs than soldiers, and with live rounds at that.

Once you've expereinced an ND, either first hand or second, it's a wake up call.  Learn from it.  Soldier on.

 

[MOOO!]

Well a simple way is to have ALL soldiers in Canada and those over seas to carry out weapon training regularly.  Some people would say that they don't have time and others would say we do do weapon skills regularly.  Well ill be the reality guy a sec and say 90% say it but don't do it.

So to make it simple do the testing it takes one period of instruction for a refresher (hands on not theory) per weapon to get the old brain working.  This will also give NCOs a idea of who needs further instruction (this includes you officer types, ya you need it also).

A lot of good ideas in these threads but keep it simple and do it in repetition and I guarantee we will be more confident and sure of what we do.  Hands on is the way to go.