Navy Will Have to Learn to Fight Terrorists and Pirates:-Admiral Drew Robertson

[Shad4now]

Pirates are a new threat? Could this be a new role for the Coast Guard or RCMP?

Oh yes, the last time I checked, the Olympics will be taking place on Terra ferma so why are so many naval officers worrying about it?

The Canadian Navy has no juristiction within local waters, if the priates are in Canadian waters, it would have to be a Coast Guard issue.  Though the Coast Guard vessels don't have mounted weapons... the navy would be assisting the coast guard.

The venues for the Olympics are very close to water, port security would play a big part in the event.

 

[Neill McKay]

The Canadian Navy has no juristiction within local waters, if the priates are in Canadian waters, it would have to be a Coast Guard issue.

I'm curious as to what makes you think that?  The Coast Guard doesn't have maritime security of that sort as part of its mandate, nor is there any restriction (to the best of my knowledge) against the navy taking action in Canadian territorial waters.  (In fact, port security is among the Naval Reserve's roles.)

What you're saying sounds as though it could be the case in the US, however.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The Canadian Navy has no juristiction within local waters, if the priates are in Canadian waters, it would have to be a Coast Guard issue.  Though the Coast Guard vessels don't have mounted weapons... the navy would be assisting the coast guard.

The venues for the Olympics are very close to water, port security would play a big part in the event.

I beg to differ. The Navy has been involved in many ops in Local Waters, from anti drugs to soverignity to getting back vehicles from the GTS Katie. Not all those Ops had CCG or RCMP involvement. I guarantee if we started to get pirates in Cdn Waters (Yeah I know as ludicrous as it sounds) the Navy would be involved. I would like to see where it says that the navy has no jurisdiction in local waters....please tell me the publication.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I beg to differ. The Navy has been involved in many ops in Local Waters, from anti drugs to soverignity to getting back vehicles from the GTS Katie. Not all those Ops had CCG or RCMP involvement. I guarantee if we started to get oirates in Cdn Waters (Yeah I know as ludicrous as it sounds) the Navy would be involved. I would like to see where it says that the navy has no jurisdiction in local waters....please tell me the publication.

Courtesy - The Arrogant Worms

The Last Saskatchewan Pirate

Well I used to be a farmer, and I made a living fine,
I had a little stretch of land along the city line
But times went by and though I tried, the money wasn't there
And bankers came and took my land and told me "fair is fair"

I looked for every kind of job, the answer always no
"Hire you now?" they'd always laugh, "we just let twenty go!" (Ha-haa!)
The government, they promised me a measly little sum
But I've got too much pride to end up just another bum.

Then I thought, who gives a damn if all the jobs are gone?
I'm gonna be a PIRATE on the river Saskatchewan!!!

The Last Saskatchewan Pirate

 

[Shad4now]

I beg to differ. The Navy has been involved in many ops in Local Waters, from anti drugs to soverignity to getting back vehicles from the GTS Katie. Not all those Ops had CCG or RCMP involvement. I guarantee if we started to get pirates in Cdn Waters (Yeah I know as ludicrous as it sounds) the Navy would be involved. I would like to see where it says that the navy has no jurisdiction in local waters....please tell me the publication.

GTS Katie was boarded in International Waters http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2000/08/10/katie000910.html
I can not find the pub that states the CF Juristiction within Canadian Territorical Waters, but in this article it shows that no one really has juristiction over our coasts http://www.sfu.ca/casr/ft-senate2.htm . Also in the NDA, CFAO, QR&O, they all expressly state the situations in which the CF would provide Aid to Civil Powers, and that the CF would not replace the civil power. Only under those situations would the CF have Civil Power (juristiction).

Also, as CF members, we can't just go around enforcing laws. We can't arrest someone for breaking the law, or give someone a parking ticket.  Even while under port security, we can only operation within a certain area, even in that area we have very limited power. Only during emergencies when we are designated as Peace Officers would we have Civil Power (ex. to detain someone...) (of course MPs follow a different set of rules)

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Also, as CF members, we can't just go around enforcing laws. We can't arrest someone for breaking the law,

Why not? All other Canadians can.....................

 

[Shad4now]

you mean citizen's arrest? But there are some limitations on it. It would either have to happen on your property or while they are committing a serious offence or escaping from police after having committed a crime. In all cases they would have to be turned over to the police immediately. Of course, other problems would occur, for example use of force, right to arrest etc.  One can very easily run in to trouble using citizen's arrest.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

..and I said "Pardon?"

May I ask your experience with this legislation?

[Folks, sorry for the off-topic swerve but I think it might shed light on "Shads" presentation....]

 

[Shad4now]

Law class mock trial, I lost..... costed me to drop a letter grade... slightly bitter about it.... can you tell?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Should have studied the 'citizens arrest" theory more methinks.....

http://www.law-faqs.org/nat/cr-sho-09.htm
After catching my daughter shoplifting, the store owner detained her in a back room of the store and told her he was going to call the police. Did he have the right to do that?

Yes. You may have heard the term "citizen's arrest". This means that any citizen has a limited right to arrest another person if they are seen committing an indictable offence or if they believe on reasonable and probable grounds that someone is committing a crime. The most common form of citizen's arrest involves shoplifting. These are usually made by store detectives or personnel. Having detained your daughter, the store owner must call the police immediately and let them take over as soon as they arrive.


Doesn't need to be serious and/or on your property at all. I'm not convinced that your arguement about what Navy personal can do holds any water whatsoever.

 

[aesop081]

A law student.......yay !!!

 

[Shad4now]

The part of the crimial code regarding citizen's arrest is as such
'In Canada, the law in regards to a citizen's arrest is codified at ¶494 of the Criminal Code as follows:

“Any one may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing an indictable offence; or a person who, on reasonable grounds, he believes has committed a criminal offence, and is escaping from and freshly pursued by persons who have lawful authority to arrest that person.

“Any one who is the owner or a person in lawful possession of property, or a person authorized by the owner or by a person in lawful possession of property, may arrest without warrant a person whom he finds committing a criminal offence on or in relation to that property.

“Any one other than a peace officer who arrests a person without warrant shall forthwith deliver the person to a peace officer.”"

The store clerk has the right to detain because he is an operator of the property. I lost because I thought it was ilegal to escape from citizen's arrest.

Which parts of the port security do you think is not correct?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Your limitations that would apparently give the Navy less authorization to arrest/detain than the average Canadian has.

[and with that, I retreat from the Naval operating area of the site as I know my limitations]

 

[Shad4now]

It is not as simple as citizen's arrest, while performing port security, first you would ......edited for OPSEC reasons.

 

[FSTO]

It is not as simple as citizen's arrest, while performing port security, first you would...also edited.

That would already be covered in your ROE. When a boat is advancing on you at 20+ knots there is ZERO time to get permission from the tall foreheads to react to them. Trust me, I have done enough training with Force Protection that the time to react is minimal at best.

 

[axeman]

   
make sure you dont overstep yourselves making a citizens arrest


http://www.bcrevolution.ca/defending_yourself_a_crime.htm

 

[Shad4now]

You are right, FSTO.
That's why I don't like Citizen's Arrest, Axeman

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

ANd if a naval vessel came across an act of piracy in Canadian waters and if lives were endangered you don't actually think a CO would wait? If you do give your head a shake....

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Law class mock trial, I lost..... costed me to drop a letter grade... slightly bitter about it.... can you tell?

.

 

[vincent.escanlar]

The store clerk has the right to detain because he is an operator of the property. I lost because I thought it was ilegal to escape from citizen's arrest.

Would s129 cover that -

129. Every one who

(a) resists or wilfully obstructs a public officer or peace officer in the execution of his duty or any person lawfully acting in aid of such an officer,
...
is guilty of

(d) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or

(e) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/showdoc/cs/C-46/bo-ga:l_IV//en#anchorbo-ga:l_IV

- or is someone making a citizen's arrest, before the police being aware, not yet "lawfully acting in aid" of a police officer?  What if the citizen saw something happening, called the police first, offered to make the arrest, and the police gave the ok, and then proceeded to do so - would it then be illegal to resist?  (But I guess if it's a 911 operator on the phone and not an actual police officer, that might not work either.)