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NATO members wonder: Will defense promises hold?

E.R. Campbell said:
My, personal, choice is ABCA+. We do not, I believe, need another alliance: our experience with NATO ought to tell us that weeks of hard nosed negotiations in the infamous smoke filled rooms only buys us strategic rigidity – just what we do not need. Rather we need a new, informal, Gn that deals with global strategic/security matters.

It may seem a simple solution today, but I can not see any alliance as being an "all singing, all dancing, be all, end all" solution.  Other alliances, major and minor, are necessary to keep "the balance".  One alliance would greatly restrict development at home and abroad.  

ABCA+ compliments, not replaces, what our (Canada's) goals should be on the world stage.  

Yes, we are in alliances that are ineffective, and perhaps greatly corrupted, such as the UN, but the potential is still there for greater things.  I suppose we can look at it the same way as the present Stock Market crisis.  Do you bail out now, or ride out the storm?

 
Deadpan said:
Ah okay, I understand it now. Thanks George. But;

Do you think that this 'pact' would actually work out, since those nations are fairly like-minded, or do you think that it might just turn out to be another League of Nations?

-Deadpan

We have already created a bigger, better, more powerful League of Nations; the UN.  We can see the problems are still there.
 
I’m sorry, GW but I’m having trouble understanding these few sentences (clear enough though each word and phrase might be):


“It may seem a simple solution today, but I can not see any alliance as being an "all singing, all dancing, be all, end all" solution.”

I specifically said ”We do not, I believe, need another alliance” because our experience with NATO ought to tell us that formal alliances are ineffective.

As to “all singing, all dancing,” a few years ago ABCA (and AUSCANZUKUS and CCEB and a few others with the same membership) were doing two of the here things I suggested are necessary:

1. Developing and ratifying (at CDS level) “some common standards for interoperability of systems, equipment and procedures.” In these, especially in the procedures domain, ABCA usually led NATO. I, personally, took my turn, along with my UK and US colleagues, telling large NATO meetings that we would soon bring a Draft QSTAG (Quadripartite Standardization Agreement) to Brussels so that members could use it as a base for a NATO STANAG (Standardization Agreement). We would, usually, develop the two documents in parallel but the QSTAG was almost always, shorter, clearer and ratified (and, therefore, taken into service) earlier; and

2. We were, and evidently still are, running multinational exercises to ‘prove’ the standards.

Contingency planning was a much more complex matter – and I suspect still is. I’m pretty sure some went on – quite informally – but it was done in/by organizations beyond mine. But, whenever senior people like the DCDS and ADM(Mat) returned from five nation meetings we were, usually, inundated with new information and questions about specific operations - matters that led us to speculate that our masters might be considering a potential combined (multinational) operation here or there.


“Other alliances, major and minor, are necessary to keep "the balance". One alliance would greatly restrict development at home and abroad.”

Which alliances? Why? What developments?

Is NORAD threatened by developing ABCA+? Would NORAD be threatened if Canada withdrew from NATO?


”ABCA+ compliments, not replaces, what our (Canada's) goals should be on the world stage.”

Of course, no outside agencies can ever replace ”our” goals – nor can they be allowed to try, but: So what?


Yes, we are in alliances that are ineffective, and perhaps greatly corrupted, such as the UN, but the potential is still there for greater things.”

Potential for the UN to do what? (beyond the useful things already done by member agencies like the IMO and ITU - some which are older than the UN itself (older even than the League of Nations) and operate completely independent of the UN.

Potential for NATO to do what? Do you really believe, based on our experience in Afghanistan, that a NATO mission in Darfur will succeed?


”I suppose we can look at it the same way as the present Stock Market crisis. Do you bail out now, or ride out the storm?”

One always sells ‘losers’ and tries to buy ‘winners’ – even during a “Stock Market crisis;” that’s why so much trading is gong on, people are selling what they think are ‘losers’ and others are buying the same stocks because they think they might be ‘winners.’

I’m suggesting that NATO has moved, over the years, to the ‘loser’ column and ABCA and the others are ‘winners.’

We do not “ride out the storm" by sitting on our hands and waiting for the worst; we trim sails and alter courses and so on - until he sailing analogy is completely overused.  ;)


 
I would not say that current formal alliances are ineffective as much as I would say the political will to abide by them is weak.  This is where the Americans have being getting so much grief on the world stage.  They have, more than any other nation, shown strong leadership.  You can not expect an alliance to rest on its printed form alone, the nation must show the intestinal fortitude to abide by the words of the alliance that it has agreed to.  Weak kneed politicians have caused our alliances to fail, not the 'alliances'.  If the will is not there, any alliance, past, present or future, will fail.  Seeking a better alliance is commendable, but we need the Political Will to make them relevant.  Has the West, other than the USA, had the strength in their leadership to do so?

Not to sound 'defeatist', but could the recreating of ourselves in new alliances not become more of an exercise in futility if we can't find strong leaders to enforce them?

Canada, as well as the majority of other participating nations, must find some backbones in the Foreign Affairs Departments and Government.  Without the strong will of the Government, our enemies will simply thumb their noses in our faces.
 
George Wallace said:
...
Weak kneed politicians have caused our alliances to fail, not the 'alliances'.  If the will is not there, any alliance, past, present or future, will fail.  Seeking a better alliance is commendable, but we need the Political Will to make them relevant ...

Fair enough, GW, but:
E.R. Campbell said:
...
Do you really believe, based on our experience in Afghanistan, that a NATO mission in Darfur will succeed?
...

If "Yes," why? What can you see in NATO's management of ISAF that fills you with such confidence?

If "No," then why is NATO so important to Canada? Do you really expect Canada to send forces to fight the Russians in South Ossetia or Ukraine?

 
I am looking at NATO as falling into the "weak Leadership" category.  With the Caveats that the various nations have placed on their troops in Afghanistan and Iraq, what difference would it make if we were to move on to Darfur?  If we want a strong alliance to work, we need the strong leaders.  Tony Blair is gone.  George Bush is on the way out.  We see the weakness in the leadership of our European Allies to commit.  Without the strong leadership we will only see the problem distroy the alliance.

Would I expect Canada to send troops to "fight the Russians in South Ossetia or Ukraine?"  Yes.  If it were necessary.  NATO should follow its mandates.  If it is going to be "All for one, One for all", then it should have the strength in leadership to do so.  We are seeing less of that as every day passes. 
 
George Wallace said:
...  NATO should follow its mandates.  If it is going to be "All for one, One for all", then it should have the strength in leadership to do so ...


But NATO's "All for one, One for all" attribute is very restricted, George. Article 5 says:

“The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them ... shall be considered an attack against them all and ... if such an armed attack occurs, each of them ... will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking ... such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.”

The phrase “including the use of armed force” means that any of Parties (nations) may decide, for itself, for its own good reasons, that armed force is not necessary.

I’m sorry, George, but NATO is weak – by design, not just due to leadership. Increasing its membership makes it weaker because any agreement, on anything is more and more difficult to obtain and standardization of material and procedures slows to a crawl as more and more interests must be addressed.

NATO is not, I suggest, very important for Canada. Some time ago The Ruxted Group suggested that NATO has gone, for Canada’s foreign and defence policies, from “Cornerstone to Stumbling Block”. Europe’s views and interests and Canada’s views and interests do not coincide in 2008 nearly as much as they did in 1948 or even 1968. Europe’s voice in NATO grows stronger and stronger – not to Canada’s strategic advantage.

The end result is that we are a small, weak member of a weak alliance; is that good policy? No.


 
I am afraid that all of these "One World" Internationalist dreams are just
that,dreams.Consider the Anglosphere touted here so often,how would it
have survived Suez,Vietnam,Iraq?,just to mention a few.No my friends the
best we can hope for is more "Alliances of the Willing".The hopes that we
have for the great international organizations are misplaced,the UN and
now NATO have turned into "talking shops" providing employment for huge
numbers of bureaucrats,mostly failed politicos from their native countries,
where any important decisions are avoided or if taken, are so watered down
by national interest groups, as to be worthless. So what can be done?we
will probably have to continue hoping our national government will be
able to steer us through the shoals of international crisis,entering in short
time alliances as our national interests mesh with others.True World peace
will IMHO only be achieved when a country emerges with so much military
and economic power to completely dominate the rest of the world.China
appears to be the most likely candidate at this period of history and if they
can achieve this position of power the peace will probably resemble the
peace of a well run prison.So let us enjoy the chaos of the 21cent. and
continue trying to solve the problems of the World on this excellent
website.
                            Regards
 
Rather than formal Alliances like NATO, ABCA, etc, why not as time expired mentioned....Alliance of the Willing on separate issues....

similar to Coalitions utilized in Iraq, interoperatatively standards need to be set, the rest is up to the individual countries....
 
time expired said:
.........So let us enjoy the chaos of the 21cent. and
continue trying to solve the problems of the World on this excellent
website.

We try our best, but even any "Alliance of the Willing" will have a best before date stamp on it.  The "Willing" loose their willingness very quickly these days.





Not to cynical, am I?
 
E.R. Campbell said:
An excellent question, oligarch, but one must say, in a rather Clintonesque manner, it all depends on the meaning of "we."

Wow… thank you for your detailed and mature response. I’m glad someone on this board understands the concept of a rhetorical question.

Europe needed NATO, desperately, in 1948. Stalin’s Russians were baleful aggressors, a malignant force spreading across Europe, intent on plunder, pillage and slavery. But Europe was quite unable to defend itself against the USSR and, simultaneously, rebuild their economies and socio-political institutions – with MASSIVE US support.

I certainly agree that it seemed that way from this side of the Berlin Wall, but do you honestly think that the regular people intended these things? My contention is that, given the chaotic state of capitalism in the late 1890s and early 1900s in Europe, the success of the de-facto militarized state-socialist but not yet truly communist Soviet Union really gave the people on the east side of the wall roughly the same point of view of the west that those on the west side had of the east. I can hardly believe that any people as a combined unit want to ‘rape and pillage’, and such statements stem from lack of understanding. Saying that ‘we are civilized, and they are barbarians’ is simply not the correct way of looking at the world. Everyone believes that their point of view is right and moral.

But I digress, the question I wanted to ask is, now that that ideological divide, and thus, the inherent disagreement is gone, do you think NATO has lost its mission? The Soviet Union, along with the Warsaw pact, is gone! Do you think that NATO, had it not found an enemy in Russia, would have created an enemy out of Russia in order to stay together?

Digression: there are, indeed, socio-economic and political aspects to NATO. They were inserted into the original treaty largely at Canada’s insistence (albeit with much Dutch and Scandinavian support) but the so-called Canada clause (Article 2) was never, ever more than a busy work project designed, by Dean Acheson, to keep Lester Pearson away from the main work of treaty crafting. The use of the clauses, through the decades, reflects their real purposes; they are, at best, window dressing and quite peripheral to the business at hand.

Agree. NATO is a millitary block and trying to assign it a non-millitary label is just an example of looking at the world through beer googles.

One can, and I would, argue that Russia still remains a malevolent force and, therefore, Europe still has a security problem. The difference is Europe itself. We no longer have a North Atlantic alliance; rather, we have a rebirth, with America as midwife, of Mitteleuropa with an Atlantic appendix that, like its human counterpart, seems to be a part in search of a useful role. Russia doesn’t like Mitteleuropa – and who can blame them? But how will Russia react? What can it do to stop a traditional threat to its vital interests? It is when we survey the whole range of Russian options that we can define a real threat to continental Europe. Thus, THEY need a military alliance but it is not clear to me that Canada, that “we,” needs to be part of it.

Our interests are best served by a peaceful, prosperous, free trading Mitteleuropa

Is it not in the best interest of Russia to supply oil and gas to stable, peaceful, prosperous democracies who can actually pay the bill? Is this MUTUAL energy dependence (Europe needs gas, Russia needs the financial capital it secures in exchange) much more effictive in preserving the peace much more useful than provokative millitary blocks? Yes, one can indeed argue that Russia is a malevolent force. But one can also argue that NATO has been a malevolent force. Today we are finding out more interesting stories out of Yugoslavia. For one, I find the assertion that Russian force in Georgia was ‘excessive’ comical, given the tactics these critics employed in Yugoslavia, which were far from ‘tactical’. However, I again ask the question: is Russia, viewed as enemy, much more useful to NATO and the EU than when it is viewed as a friend? Without Russia in the form of an enemy, NATO would have no reason to stay together, the EU would not be able to agree on anything when it comes to energy policy, and military contractors would not be able to secure lucrative contracts to build missile interceptors in Poland and the Czech Republic.

Personally, I doubt that NATO is still useful as the UN’s primary military sub-contractor.
I respectfully disagree with this assertion... the UN and NATO can't agree on anything! Look at Yugoslavia, Kosovo.

This loose, informal ‘organization’ needs head of government level support, affirmed by annual meetings, and it needs some common, agreed (ratified at head of national defence department level) standards for interoperability of systems, equipment and procedures that are ‘proved’ on a periodic basis. This organization could, I think, quickly plan and organize ‘coalitions of the willing' to address security crises on behalf of the UNSC.
What are your thoughts on replacing NATO as a millitary block, which is - I would argue - an outdated relic of the cold war, with a UNSC force, given that some reforms of the UNSC take place to include some of the non-UNSC G8 members such as Germany and Canada?
 
The world would be a much safer place with a UN Security Force. ::)
 
oligarch said:
Wow… thank you for your detailed and mature response. I’m glad someone on this board understands the concept of a rhetorical question. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Win_Friends_and_Influence_People

;)

 
oligarch said:
The Soviet Union, along with the Warsaw pact, is gone! Do you think that NATO, had it not found an enemy in Russia, would have created an enemy out of Russia in order to stay together?

Well, there are certainly some conspiracy theorists whom adore the mentioned Motherland who'd like to think so. 

 
ArmyVern said:
Well, there are certainly some conspiracy theorists whom adore the mentioned Motherland who'd like to think so. 

I don't think there is anything terribly 'conspiracy-like' about this question. If you look at what actually happened, Russia in the quality of an enemy is begining to provide NATO with a purpose, a terribly old-fashioned one, but a purpose nonetheless.
 
oligarch said:
I don't think there is anything terribly 'conspiracy-like' about this question. If you look at what actually happened, Russia in the quality of an enemy is begining to provide NATO with a purpose, a terribly old-fashioned one, but a purpose nonetheless.

Well you know, you may not, but conspiracy theorists still head over heals in love with the Motherland would beg to differ with you.  ;)
 
oligarch said:
Russia in the quality of an enemy is begining to provide NATO with a purpose, a terribly old-fashioned one, but a purpose nonetheless.

It may be old fashion but still incredibly valid.
 
CDN Aviator said:
It may be old fashion but still incredibly valid.

That wasn't really the essence of my point. However, how so is it incredibly valid? My contention is that NATO is manufacturing an outside enemy as a means of consolidation.
 
oligarch said:
My contention is that NATO is manufacturing an outside enemy as a means of consolidation.

Well........those must have been imaginary TU-95s who came to say hello to NATO / NORAD defences in several locations then.......for example.
 
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