Medics in Afghanistan on frontline
- Thread starter Armymedic
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bisonmedic said:The only saving grace for the medics at both the fd amb and the field hospital is the pending merger of medics. From what I hear, the 1CFH will be closed. C-Med will watch over the kit, and 2FD Amb will grow from 300 to 600 pers, making it a med support regt. In a way this can solve manpower issues depending on how they do it. If it happens, I hope to heck they do it right. We all need more people for the current ops and whatever happens down the road.
When has the CF cut and merged anything and not wound up with something smaller than the sum?
I expect we'll loose more gear, and wind up with an even smaller 2 Fd Amb.
As Gunner98 pointed out, there are only 80 Med Tech positions at the Field Hospital. Divide by three
and the math says your only going to free up 26 people. A gain that the recruiting system could
easily cover.
Hardly worth another loss of capability.
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Another thing... some of the Role 3 guys, don't want to be Role 3 guys, and they're just slotted there, because, well the luck of the draw. A fellow member of this unit, to whom I have high regards for, is fit, aggressive AND field-oriented, *surprise* and got a role 3 job. So... are you saying he's less then qualified to be a Role 1 pers? Ya... I don't think so.
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Frankly it does not matter which unit you belong to when it comes to deployment. If 1 Fd Amb is tasked with a Roto then those pers will fill both the role 1 and 3 positions.
As Gunner said, its luck of the draw. Honestly, those in from the Fd Hosp had as much to learn about Role 3 work as those from the Fd Ambs.
Remember, this is the first time we have staffed a Role 3 Fac except on Ex since Korea.
GF
As Gunner said, its luck of the draw. Honestly, those in from the Fd Hosp had as much to learn about Role 3 work as those from the Fd Ambs.
Remember, this is the first time we have staffed a Role 3 Fac except on Ex since Korea.
GF
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Would it be an imposition or a security breach to explain what the "roles" mean/are?
Its obviously a passionate topic but...... ???
Its obviously a passionate topic but...... ???
RN PRN said:
RN PRN
As I have said this is the second go round for many of the pers from/in the Multi-national Role 3.
Bruce:
Role 1 - At Point of Injury, Casualty Collection Point/Station - initial treatment - Unit Medical Station, in FOB or with vehicle or foot patrols - battlefield advanced first aid and initial life-saving treatment care - Medical Officer and Physician Assistant available
Role 2 - Brigade Medical Station (Field Ambulance) - road evac, limited holding capacity 72 hours or less - first level with dedicated Medical Officers - not normally seen on current operations
Role 3 - Advanced surgical centre or field hospital, currently first level with surgical (orthopaedic and general), internal medicine and diagnostic capability - Lab, X-ray (Diagnostic Imagery including CT/CAT scan), Social work, mental health, dentist with dental section, oralmaxofacial surgeon, physiotheraphy, Formation Medical Equipment Depot (Pharmacy), support services and supply section, most importantly - stabilization for Air Evacuation to Role 4. Normally max 7-10 days, longer if there is a chance of returning to action. Capable of diagnosis of disease and fairly complex reconstructive surgery. Holding capacity is approx. 24 beds.
Role 4 - Convalescent hospital normally out of theatre - Landstuhl, Koblenz, Canada
The point that has been lost in this discussion is that the guys at the front do outstanding work to keep the front line soldiers where they belong at the front lines and alive. If they require any invasive or diagnostic procedures - the assets exist at Role 3.
At KAF - there is a multi-national field hospital with approx. 180 staff of which Canada provides approx. 90 HSS/CSS personnel. The list above for Role 3 is the current capability of the multinational medical unit (MMU).
Being able to work along side these specialists and with the superior diagnostic equipment is amazing. Having all of same the tools and skill sets available in a civilian hospital on stand-by at KAF is "eye-opening."
Having outstanding Med Techs at the front lines is life-saving.
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Well said 
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Insert Quote
Quote from: RN PRN on Yesterday at 20:44:20
Remember, this is the first time we have staffed a Role 3 Fac except on Ex since Korea.
GF
RN PRN
Whoa, easy with the history there, some of us are attached to our surgical past...
Actually we did Role 3 care in Saudi Arabia 1991 during the first Gulf War, including surgery for about two dozen Iraqi, UK and US combat wounded. Two ASCs from the field hospital were colocated with a UK Field Hospital at Al-qaysumah near Hafr-Al-Batin. Yeah, we got real black rain and real wounded there.
A few of those people are still around and have already worked at the KAF R3MMU. Many of the specialist MOs have now done 6 to 12 tours and treated wounded in former Yugoslavia too. The specialist MOs on the surgical teams are not seeing anything really new, just more of it than previous tours. Of course for the more junior staff this is new work, but not everybody is a tenderfoot.
RN PRN can be forgiven as there is some ambiguity about Role 2+ versus Role 3, one way to look at it is that Role 3 makes casualties ready for out-of-theatre StratEvac. Also, the NATO and US Role/Level definitions actually don't quite match up at present as the world has changed since those STANAGs were written. Plus, if there are helicopters and air superiority, then the Role 2 (inc. ground Fd Amb or FST/ASC/FFRS) is redundant if there is a Role 3 within flight range.
A big problem now is that we are losing our experienced Role 3 specialist MOs as many are in 20-25 years. We will run out of CF surgeons, orthopedic surgeons, radiologists and internists in rotations at various points this year, hence the announced program to hire civilian Canadian specialists and pay them $3-5K per day to fill the gaps.
Busting up the historic Role 3 capability at 1 Cdn Fd Hosp into smaller bits for HSRs probably is not going to help much either. The pie is pretty small already.
We are hurting for more good people.
For my 2 cents, Role 1 and Role 3 MedTechs all did a great job while I was there. Sure, different jobs, but I was very happy with the care our wounded had received before arrival at KAF, and very happy with the job MedTechs did for us on the base too. I heard no complaints from my colleagues about MedTechs over there either.
Medical is all about getting our wounded home, lives and limbs intact, and I saw no one doing an "easy" or "less important" medical job anywhere over there.
Sawbones
Quote from: RN PRN on Yesterday at 20:44:20
Remember, this is the first time we have staffed a Role 3 Fac except on Ex since Korea.
GF
RN PRN
Whoa, easy with the history there, some of us are attached to our surgical past...
Actually we did Role 3 care in Saudi Arabia 1991 during the first Gulf War, including surgery for about two dozen Iraqi, UK and US combat wounded. Two ASCs from the field hospital were colocated with a UK Field Hospital at Al-qaysumah near Hafr-Al-Batin. Yeah, we got real black rain and real wounded there.
A few of those people are still around and have already worked at the KAF R3MMU. Many of the specialist MOs have now done 6 to 12 tours and treated wounded in former Yugoslavia too. The specialist MOs on the surgical teams are not seeing anything really new, just more of it than previous tours. Of course for the more junior staff this is new work, but not everybody is a tenderfoot.
RN PRN can be forgiven as there is some ambiguity about Role 2+ versus Role 3, one way to look at it is that Role 3 makes casualties ready for out-of-theatre StratEvac. Also, the NATO and US Role/Level definitions actually don't quite match up at present as the world has changed since those STANAGs were written. Plus, if there are helicopters and air superiority, then the Role 2 (inc. ground Fd Amb or FST/ASC/FFRS) is redundant if there is a Role 3 within flight range.
A big problem now is that we are losing our experienced Role 3 specialist MOs as many are in 20-25 years. We will run out of CF surgeons, orthopedic surgeons, radiologists and internists in rotations at various points this year, hence the announced program to hire civilian Canadian specialists and pay them $3-5K per day to fill the gaps.
Busting up the historic Role 3 capability at 1 Cdn Fd Hosp into smaller bits for HSRs probably is not going to help much either. The pie is pretty small already.
We are hurting for more good people.
For my 2 cents, Role 1 and Role 3 MedTechs all did a great job while I was there. Sure, different jobs, but I was very happy with the care our wounded had received before arrival at KAF, and very happy with the job MedTechs did for us on the base too. I heard no complaints from my colleagues about MedTechs over there either.
Medical is all about getting our wounded home, lives and limbs intact, and I saw no one doing an "easy" or "less important" medical job anywhere over there.
Sawbones
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Was not Sipovo BiH a role 3 for a short time?
As for role 1 vs role 3 tasks for the medics....
I say shut your cake hole and do the job you are given, and do it well. We medics all belong to the same org and get paid the same regardless if we are working with a rifle platoon, backseater in a Bison, UMS at KPRT or Medic on the surg ward.
Everyone has a job to do. This petty bullshit has no place in theater.
As for role 1 vs role 3 tasks for the medics....
I say shut your cake hole and do the job you are given, and do it well. We medics all belong to the same org and get paid the same regardless if we are working with a rifle platoon, backseater in a Bison, UMS at KPRT or Medic on the surg ward.
Everyone has a job to do. This petty bullshit has no place in theater.
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Everyone has a job to do. This petty bullshit has no place in theater Well said St. Mikes'. We are (were in my case) Canadian Forces medical Services wearing a Canadian uniform. This petty bullshit has no place in theater: or at home. We must learn from each other and pass our experiences / lessons learned / mistakes on to our peers and subordinates.
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xo31@711ret said:
I could have sworn that was the point I was trying to make but perhaps too obtuse about it. I was not trying to get into a "Tastes Great, Less filling" pissing match. More sudjesting that We have stuff we can learn from the role 1 guys and vice versa.
When I was in theater there was no animosity that I experienced. It was totally Team...as it should be.
Thank you St Mikes and o31@.
GF Out
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RN PRN said:
RN PRN:
I think you made your point well - and I agree with your premise.
I think it is possible that you were "taken wrong" by some folks - ONLY because of the medium, not the message.
These forums are tricky things, you write what you think to be intelligent, well thought out, and articulate messages. Many agree with you. Others, with absolutely NO malice, will interpret your posting in another way - and then off we go on a tangent, which tangent is essentially meaningless to your original intent.
Having said all that - by reading this thread I've gained an insight into the medical role(s) that I never had before - thanks to ALL of you for that, knowledge is a "good thing" - no matter its' source.
Roy
The Librarian said:Maybe my memory isn't the best here but weren't a component of Cdn Fd Hosp deployed, employed and operational during the first Gulf War? With an Inf Secur Coy if I recall correctly. Am I confused?
Librarian - you are not confused. Approx. 530 Cdn medical pers deployed during Gulf War, most to Saudi Arabia.
"ASC I of the 1 Cdn Field Hospital arrived in Al Jubayl on the 29th of January 1991 and deployed up to Al Qaysumah on the 8th of February 1991. In addition, 52 Canadian personnel served with other coalition units. A Canadian surgical team served aboard the USNS Mercy. They were also other Canadians working with our embassy in Riyadh and on security detail to important cities such as Dubai. Following the Gulf War, a Canadian Medical Contingent was sent to Southern Turkey/Northern Iraq to assist with the management of Kurdish refugees." Source - http://www.dnd.ca/site/Reports/Health/appendixE_e.asp
