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What a load of bunk this article is, it seems to have been written by the Croatian version of "Comical Ali". He must have searched high and low for any info on the subject, as he horribly perverts an interview I gave to a local newspaper prior to going to Winnipeg for the CIC Commendation Pde.
Noneck
Noneck
M
Mineguy
Guest
Hey "B"(noneck)...good to see youÂ're still alive buddy!
..me too ...
Dont get to wrapped over this guys article.Or any balkans press for that matter..
..me too ...Dont get to wrapped over this guys article.Or any balkans press for that matter..
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I needed a new book for the flights over to Afghanistan and finally decided to buy The Ghosts of Medak Pocket after cheaping out for quite some time.
I ended up finishing it along the way in no time and pretty much didn't put it down. The funny thing is, I met a guy on the plane that was also on his way to the Stan who was in 2 VP in the time. So after i was done with the book i gave him a barrage of questions about the book, some which I thought needed a little clarification. He too had started to read the book but put it down out of boredom, can't blame him I guess, but I thought it was an excellent book. It revealed a lot i didn't know, and i think more soldiers should go out of their way to get their hands on this book and get a taste of what some of our troops have been through recently...it makes a tour in Afghanistan look like a walk in the park, literally.
Great book, and i may even pick up some of Carol Off's other books in the future.
Cheers
I ended up finishing it along the way in no time and pretty much didn't put it down. The funny thing is, I met a guy on the plane that was also on his way to the Stan who was in 2 VP in the time. So after i was done with the book i gave him a barrage of questions about the book, some which I thought needed a little clarification. He too had started to read the book but put it down out of boredom, can't blame him I guess, but I thought it was an excellent book. It revealed a lot i didn't know, and i think more soldiers should go out of their way to get their hands on this book and get a taste of what some of our troops have been through recently...it makes a tour in Afghanistan look like a walk in the park, literally.
Great book, and i may even pick up some of Carol Off's other books in the future.
Cheers
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First of all, I have to say that this book is very instructive on a hidden, shadowed part of our Canadian (military?) history. It's a beautiful tribute to what little good have been done there and efforts of our soldiers. All that due to extensive research done by Off. Research that are impressive given the broad range of facts mentionned, the history of this part of the world and link with Canada; all that put a context around the political and military events described in the book.
The first chapter is rather misleading though. It opens with soldiers under shell fire. That's how we make contact with PPCLI soldier's deployed in Croatia. We come to understand that's this event will be described later, because after introducing some key 'characters', she comes back in time and show the history of preparation of this mix of units forming the battalion deployed. Then, she follow this preparation up to the deployment in the north and west part of Croatia. Then, she tells us about the history of Former Yugoslavia (including Croatia) and the links with Canada's Croats expats community. After that, we really dive in the story of the UN mission. Troughout this I always thought that the 18-hour firefight would be a climax in the book. Books like We Were Soldiers... and Young or that kind of military history piece book use that process: telling a bit of an event, go back in time, come back to the event. So this is why I found that rather misleading in that she passes over it in a couple of paragraphs and then we go on with the Croat-Serb ceasefire and the first time the CF soldiers enter the Croat-held area. It's about the 2/3 of the book at that time and I was really wondering what so important was to come after that and taking that long. It was the returning.
Not that the coming home wasn't important, but, to me, the climax was behind. Still, this part touched me really deeply. As a future CF member, I read and learned the bad side of NDHQ and the CF in the '90s. You have to be strong to still believe in the CF after what is reported in this book. I don't exactly know how it is now in the CF, but I know that pre- and post-deployment medical tests are conducted, that now that NDHQ and CF have been obliged to publicly recognize their responsability and that by putting the focus on the soldier, maybe the bean counter bureaucrat point of view have been reduced if not eliminated. It's full of doubts and hopes that I came out of this book and look foward to join the CF. I hope to be part of it and change it, in my own way, by bringing the best of me.
I dearly hope it becomes a mandatory reading (in the Army reading list) and, even though it's heart shattering, that people will acknowledge and remember this dark part of the canadian military history.
The first chapter is rather misleading though. It opens with soldiers under shell fire. That's how we make contact with PPCLI soldier's deployed in Croatia. We come to understand that's this event will be described later, because after introducing some key 'characters', she comes back in time and show the history of preparation of this mix of units forming the battalion deployed. Then, she follow this preparation up to the deployment in the north and west part of Croatia. Then, she tells us about the history of Former Yugoslavia (including Croatia) and the links with Canada's Croats expats community. After that, we really dive in the story of the UN mission. Troughout this I always thought that the 18-hour firefight would be a climax in the book. Books like We Were Soldiers... and Young or that kind of military history piece book use that process: telling a bit of an event, go back in time, come back to the event. So this is why I found that rather misleading in that she passes over it in a couple of paragraphs and then we go on with the Croat-Serb ceasefire and the first time the CF soldiers enter the Croat-held area. It's about the 2/3 of the book at that time and I was really wondering what so important was to come after that and taking that long. It was the returning.
Not that the coming home wasn't important, but, to me, the climax was behind. Still, this part touched me really deeply. As a future CF member, I read and learned the bad side of NDHQ and the CF in the '90s. You have to be strong to still believe in the CF after what is reported in this book. I don't exactly know how it is now in the CF, but I know that pre- and post-deployment medical tests are conducted, that now that NDHQ and CF have been obliged to publicly recognize their responsability and that by putting the focus on the soldier, maybe the bean counter bureaucrat point of view have been reduced if not eliminated. It's full of doubts and hopes that I came out of this book and look foward to join the CF. I hope to be part of it and change it, in my own way, by bringing the best of me.
I dearly hope it becomes a mandatory reading (in the Army reading list) and, even though it's heart shattering, that people will acknowledge and remember this dark part of the canadian military history.
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Interesting viewpoint MdB and very valid in a storytelling context. I also agree that she did a phenomenal amount of research. She very clearly described the history of the conflict and how it started with an eye to having lay-persons understand.
From my perspective though I agree with the way she told the story though. It was very important to tell the story of the firefight, but that surely isn't the end. What was equally important (and possibly the crux of the entire story) was how the lives of everyone were affected afterward and how policies were changed to deal with it. While seeming anticlimactic, I see the benefits to how she organized things.
Cheers,
From my perspective though I agree with the way she told the story though. It was very important to tell the story of the firefight, but that surely isn't the end. What was equally important (and possibly the crux of the entire story) was how the lives of everyone were affected afterward and how policies were changed to deal with it. While seeming anticlimactic, I see the benefits to how she organized things.
Cheers,
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Mark Antony said:
I agree with you. We see in some way that there's been some lessons learned implemented and that the CF don't do things like before the '90s. Haven't been of that, I would not know at all of the Medak events and that's one story the public must know.
Still, I really liked the way she told it the entire book, because you feel like being there, as a tour with her and visiting all those extraordinary characters. But the battle itself went in a flash, dig in, position the firebase, position of medic 50 meters back, the fight itself, or fights is better. Ranging from 20 minutes to two hours (if I remember well), but all we know of it is the retreat of the firebase, the fight in the trenches (that saved lives) and that it's been several fights over a total of 16 hours. Well, I would have had more details. I understand that's not the point, but given the books opens on the incidents...
Ah, and another thing I didn't mentionned. I'm pretty visual and like to see maps and track movements on it. I would have liked more maps, maybe 1-2 more and with more infos on it... just glitches in my mind.
But overall, this is a MUST.
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The lack of maps is almost inexcusable. I think with a military context in any book a map would be a must or much of the story simply couldn't be understood. Had it not been for her excellent content, her book would surely have failed to meet its point.
Let that be a lesson for future military book writers....
Let that be a lesson for future military book writers....
If you are looking for maps on the Medak Pocket then have a look at, CHANCES FOR PEACE-Canadian Soldiers in the Balkans, 1992-1995 An Oral history. by Sean M. Maloney and John Llambias. It has maps of the operation down to the indivual tracks of 8 Pl. The book itself is an excellent read, I believe I picked up my copy for $35.00 at Chapters.
Noneck
Noneck
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I can understand up to a certain point that Off or the publisher failed to put some really precise maps in the book. This is no Sean Maloney or David Bercuson or Bernd Horn, who are either military historian, scholar or in the military.
Thanks for the tip.
Thanks for the tip.
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larry Strong said:
I was on ROTO 1 with you, Except I was down with the Engineers in Daruvar proper. All I gotta say is that there was no shortage of local alcohol nor Twins Pizza when we were in camp.Unfortunately all the beer was Pivo and you have not had a hang over until you have had a pivo hang over.
As for knowing people that were in the pocket, one is working in the office across the hall from me right now.
GF
Edit for spelling
;D ;D Man those names bring back memories Twins Pizza and PiPi's Disco....fond memories of Darauvar Roto 2. Every couple of months the Pl WO would take us into Camp Polom from Toranj, on a maintenance day run and give us a few hours in Darauvar. I still have all the pirated euro trash 90's tapes that I bought there. The night would usually end with the 10 or 12 of us in the back of the ML chugging homebrew rakija on the way home...thank god I was only 20 at the time I'd never recover from those nights these days!!!
Noneck
Noneck
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Hi,
The link below is to a photo taken on September 28th, 1993 near the town of Licki Citluk in the Medak Pocket. The guys in the photo are from 10 platoon, D Coy, 2PPCLI. I think someone from 2PPCLI HQ took it; a medic maybe? Any idea who the photographer might be or how I might find him? I would like to get a (better) reproduction of this photo.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7125/1129/1600/image1118.jpg
Thanks in advance for your help and please accept my apologies if I posted in the wrong forum -- my first time posting.
Thanks,
Ray Vermette
The link below is to a photo taken on September 28th, 1993 near the town of Licki Citluk in the Medak Pocket. The guys in the photo are from 10 platoon, D Coy, 2PPCLI. I think someone from 2PPCLI HQ took it; a medic maybe? Any idea who the photographer might be or how I might find him? I would like to get a (better) reproduction of this photo.
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7125/1129/1600/image1118.jpg
Thanks in advance for your help and please accept my apologies if I posted in the wrong forum -- my first time posting.
Thanks,
Ray Vermette
As a former soldier now reservist I routinely do searches on Medak Pocket since I was there and do to other circumstances I'm still involved with it.
On my lastest search I came across this forum and decided to reply in the hopes I can clarify a few points that others have been discussing.
"Tested Mettle" by Scott Taylor intresting read not a great read if you know some of the facts. I talked with Scott Taylor about this during his book tour when I was stationed in Gagetown. I talked with him because I was concerned about the misleading statements he made in his book about the Sweep Teams
"Rain fell steadily through the night as those few soldiers who had deployed into no-man's-land waited for a possible counter-attack from either Serbs or Croats. Finally, on the drizzly morning of Sept. 17, teams of UN civilian police arrived to probe the smouldering ruins for murder victims.
Rotting corpses lying out in the open were catalogued, then turned over to the peacekeepers for burial"
These Teams of UN Civilian Police only sort of exisited.
Reality is the Team cocnsited of a Canadian Medical Doctor (1), UN Civilan Police (1), photographer, padre plus his driver, body bag detail (1 PPCLI Mortar Platoon), 1 section of Medical pers support staff all led my Maj King and MWO Cameron. All military except for the (1) UNCIVPOL.
Scott Taylor does not mention this as he never bothered to interview anyone about this portion. He said after 60-90 interviews on Medak he had enough info.
Next it seems the story of the Battle of the Medak Pocket gets better every time people discuss it in case the victims get younger and yougner the longer the story goes on as in this example
1. French reconnaissance troops and the Canadian command element pushed up the valley and soon began to find bodies of Serb civilians, some already decomposing, others freshly slaughtered. In one village, Calvin saw the bodies of two young girls who had been repeatedly raped, tied t ochairs and then set on fire.
2. Some suspicious circumstances, e.g., two badly burned bodies were found in a concrete chicken coop that could have been used as a jail, spent casings found near bodies, one body tied up, etc.;
Both points 1 and 2 refer to the same incident when the investigation was first conducted the bodies were thought to be mother (50-60) and daughter (30-40). Other UN documents list them as sisters but place their age at 50+.
But every time these two victims are talked about they get younger makes the story sound better I guess.
One other point off topic that should be clarified, the reason we had so many reservists is that the previous roto (3PPCLI) neede four companies and took our Charlie Company. Which left us with two rifle companies for our tour. So we needed all those reservists which was a good thing as they brought a lot of talents to the table. One guy pretty well rebuilt every bunker in A companies AOR due to his construction skills.
I've worked with reservists on three tours Cyprus Croatia and Bosnia great people to work with, and now I too am a reservist Class A
On my lastest search I came across this forum and decided to reply in the hopes I can clarify a few points that others have been discussing.
"Tested Mettle" by Scott Taylor intresting read not a great read if you know some of the facts. I talked with Scott Taylor about this during his book tour when I was stationed in Gagetown. I talked with him because I was concerned about the misleading statements he made in his book about the Sweep Teams
"Rain fell steadily through the night as those few soldiers who had deployed into no-man's-land waited for a possible counter-attack from either Serbs or Croats. Finally, on the drizzly morning of Sept. 17, teams of UN civilian police arrived to probe the smouldering ruins for murder victims.
Rotting corpses lying out in the open were catalogued, then turned over to the peacekeepers for burial"
These Teams of UN Civilian Police only sort of exisited.
Reality is the Team cocnsited of a Canadian Medical Doctor (1), UN Civilan Police (1), photographer, padre plus his driver, body bag detail (1 PPCLI Mortar Platoon), 1 section of Medical pers support staff all led my Maj King and MWO Cameron. All military except for the (1) UNCIVPOL.
Scott Taylor does not mention this as he never bothered to interview anyone about this portion. He said after 60-90 interviews on Medak he had enough info.
Next it seems the story of the Battle of the Medak Pocket gets better every time people discuss it in case the victims get younger and yougner the longer the story goes on as in this example
1. French reconnaissance troops and the Canadian command element pushed up the valley and soon began to find bodies of Serb civilians, some already decomposing, others freshly slaughtered. In one village, Calvin saw the bodies of two young girls who had been repeatedly raped, tied t ochairs and then set on fire.
2. Some suspicious circumstances, e.g., two badly burned bodies were found in a concrete chicken coop that could have been used as a jail, spent casings found near bodies, one body tied up, etc.;
Both points 1 and 2 refer to the same incident when the investigation was first conducted the bodies were thought to be mother (50-60) and daughter (30-40). Other UN documents list them as sisters but place their age at 50+.
But every time these two victims are talked about they get younger makes the story sound better I guess.
One other point off topic that should be clarified, the reason we had so many reservists is that the previous roto (3PPCLI) neede four companies and took our Charlie Company. Which left us with two rifle companies for our tour. So we needed all those reservists which was a good thing as they brought a lot of talents to the table. One guy pretty well rebuilt every bunker in A companies AOR due to his construction skills.
I've worked with reservists on three tours Cyprus Croatia and Bosnia great people to work with, and now I too am a reservist Class A
C
c4th
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None of that was as good as gate, sweeping the road, or pounding track
None of that was as good as gate, sweeping the road, or pounding track None of that was as good as gate, sweeping the road, or pounding track
Yeah, the Toranj Municpal Workers Union Local # 7 (TMWU#7). Good seeing you on the wekend Marty even though it was for Smokey's service.
Noneck
Yeah, the Toranj Municpal Workers Union Local # 7 (TMWU#7). Good seeing you on the wekend Marty even though it was for Smokey's service.
Noneck
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Just checked in on this thread and notice the link has been denied. Here's another one -- hopefully this one won't get pulled:
Here's a link to the page it's on. Hopefully this will work if the direct link doesn't:
http://flickr.com/photos/15792904@N00/35683472/
Thanks,
Ray
Here's a link to the page it's on. Hopefully this will work if the direct link doesn't:
http://flickr.com/photos/15792904@N00/35683472/
Thanks,
Ray
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Cpl Gomn is a Class A Reserest working for 38 CBG. I will ask him if he took the photo and get back to you here.
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