Measures against a officer cadet

[my72jeep]

There is a big difference between having the authority to provide direction and being in the Chain of Command. At no point is any civilian in the Chain of Command. If the CO is unavailable, command does not fall to the CO's secretary it falls to the 2I/C and all the way down the Chain of Command to the most junior of officers. While there are times where it may be appropriate for a civilian to provide some supervision and oversight of a military member, they are NOT, nor can they ever be, in their Chain of Command by virtue of their lack of command authority such as an officers commission.

Never said in the chain of command.

 

[jeffb]

Nope, you didn't but it was mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[CombatDoc]

Never said in the chain of command.

No, what you actually said was "In the cadet world a Civilian can and will be put in command over a junior CIC Officer...".  Used in a military context, the phrase "in command over" implies a CoC relationship between a superior and subordinate.

 

[my72jeep]

No, what you actually said was "In the cadet world a Civilian can and will be put in command over a junior CIC Officer...".  Used in a military context, the phrase "in command over" implies a CoC relationship between a superior and subordinate.

Ok "Can be put in Command of" sound better?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Maybe public service terms might make it simpler.

Can a civilian volunteer or CI be designated by the CO as a project or task lead, with support to be provided by a uniformed member(s) designated by the same CO?

 

[myself.only]

Maybe public service terms might make it simpler.

Can a civilian volunteer or CI be designated by the CO as a project or task lead, with support to be provided by a uniformed member(s) designated by the same CO?

I dunno... I'm not familiar with public service terms but wouldn't agreeing with the above only indicate yes, they're both working on the same thing, but then kind of neatly side-step the whole relationship and lines of authority between the two?

 

[CombatDoc]

Ok "Can be put in Command of" sound better?

No. Remove "Command" entirely, and perhaps substitute with supervise/be the team lead/oversee tasks, etc. 

 

[my72jeep]

For the most part the Members of the Canadian Military On these Forms say that CIC are not Military, and they want the CIC out of the Military and into something like the old Cadet Service of Canada. But wait, find out that at times We use Civilians in Positions of authority over an Officer Cadet and wow you want us back in the Military so you can Quote COC, NDA, and so on.
In 20+ years I have seen a Civilian's in roles where the an Ocdt report's to them, mainly because the Ocdt. does not have the time in, experience, or maturity to be in command a position of authority.
Have I ever seen a Civi discipline an Officer no, but I have had to deal with a lot of recommendations on how they should be whipped, shot, pissed on, ect.

 

[myself.only]

No. Remove "Command" entirely, and perhaps substitute with supervise/be the team lead/oversee tasks, etc.

OK, looking to a RegF example.... how would the CAF describe the relationship / authority of a civilian employee who runs... say clothing stores... and the Cpls that do his bidding? 

 

[jpjohnsn]

For the most part the Members of the Canadian Military On these Forms say that CIC are not Military, and they want the CIC out of the Military and into something like the old Cadet Service of Canada. But wait, find out that at times We use Civilians in Positions of authority over an Officer Cadet and wow you want us back in the Military so you can Quote COC, NDA, and so on.
In 20+ years I have seen a Civilian's in roles where the an Ocdt report's to them, mainly because the Ocdt. does not have the time in, experience, or maturity to be in command a position of authority.
Have I ever seen a Civi discipline an Officer no, but I have had to deal with a lot of recommendations on how they should be whipped, shot, pissed on, ect.

Well, I'm in the CIC with 20+ years in and I don't agree with everything you've said either.

The use of CIs at summer training centres is a special case, and are treated in regulations as such, because those placed in leadership positions are hired because they have specific qualifications that those in uniform just don't have (i.e. instructor pilots or sailing instructors and the like).  We give that a nod and a wink because we need to do that to make things work for the cadets at the CSTC level or courses just can't be run.

At the local headquarters, CIs and CVs are on staff to fill instructor positions or provide a specific set of skills when we simply don't have uniformed staff to fill those spots or have those quals.  Yes, sometimes these "instructors" might end up in non-training jobs - like supply - even when they are supposed to be employed like that.  But generalized CIs, are not employed to lead CF members as a normal part of their duties.  Civilian Volunteers are only employed to assist CIs and CIC officers - period.

Now, CIs can be tasked by a corps CO to run an activity.  Despite being nominally in charge, those of us in uniform are not under their command (authority, whatever you want to call it).  We *cooperate* with them by abiding with their directions to make the activity work but, in general, they are not the boss of us.

Now, the OP hasn't really given us the complete picture of the situation here.  To be honest, they didn't even use the term civilian to describe their volunteerism.  We have CF members out of Borden that are authorized to be "uniformed volunteers" for us. 

If this is for a specific activity and the OP is a Civilian Volunteer, yes, the OCdt might have been tasked to do a number of things for them.  If the OCdt is the waste of skin the OP claims then they should be talking to the TrgO or CO and let them handle it.  If a corps level CV or CI is in a position of authority over a CF member as part of their regular job, that needs to stop in a hurry.

*EDIT*
POSTED BY myself.only

OK, looking to a RegF example.... how would the CAF describe the relationship / authority of a civilian employee who runs... say clothing stores... and the Cpls that do his bidding? 

You are comparing apples to oranges.  Your example is that of a civilian employee and not a civilian instructor.  The terms of reference for a CI are specific as to their primary function.  CV TORs are even more specific. 

 

[myself.only]

My unit has never employed a lot of civilian staff... but I know you see a lot of "different" things out there.... so maybe that's why I'm kind of scratching my head on the concept of putting them in charge of CAF members.

You are comparing apples to oranges.  Your example is that of a civilian employee and not a civilian instructor. 

Agreed. Sorry, I was not saying it's the same thing. I was looking to find the exact language used in the civilian employee's TOR to explain his relationship, and then see if the language would be applicable / transferrable to the CCO.

The terms of reference for a CI are specific as to their primary function.  CV TORs are even more specific.

Sorry JP, I wish I could share your optimism on that. But TORs?  Maybe at gliding centres and CSTCs but at the unit level, I'd doubt you'd find many units with TORs for specific functions.  Hopefully they could point you in the direction of the CATOs but position specific TORs for civilians?

 

[X Royal]

For the most part the Members of the Canadian Military On these Forms say that CIC are not Military, and they want the CIC out of the Military and into something like the old Cadet Service of Canada. But wait, find out that at times We use Civilians in Positions of authority over an Officer Cadet and wow you want us back in the Military so you can Quote COC, NDA, and so on.

I always believed that CIC are part of the Canadian Forces as as such should act as such. When you skirt the rules and state Cadet organizations do things differently it's a crock. You can't have it both ways.

Have I ever seen a Civi discipline an Officer no, but I have had to deal with a lot of recommendations on how they should be whipped, shot, pissed on, ect.

To listen to complaints about your officers deficiencies is one thing, but to even begin to deal with recommendations on how they should be disciplined is wrong and in my opinion a failure of leadership. These civilians should cut off at the start of the subject and told clearly any discipline is a responsibility of the chain of command which they are not part of.

 

[X Royal]

In 20+ years I have seen a Civilian's in roles where the an Ocdt report's to them, mainly because the Ocdt. does not have the time in, experience, or maturity to be in command a position of authority.

My big question is why would any cadet corps recruit anyone as an OCdt that does not have the maturity to be in a position of authority?
A problem I've seen in the past was some corps recruiting their junior officers from aged out cadets. Some of these officers do not make the transition from cadet buddy to officer in charge well at all. Very careful screening in these cases should be done before an offer of employment is made.

 

[jpjohnsn]

My big question is why would any cadet corps recruit anyone as an OCdt that does not have the maturity to be in a position of authority?
A problem I've seen in the past was some corps recruiting their junior officers from aged out cadets. Some of these officers do not make the transition from cadet buddy to officer in charged well at all. Very careful screening in these cases should be done before an offer of employment is made.

Very true.  While my particular squadron has never been in a position where we were desperate for staff, we've had an official policy that cadets need to wait at least a full calendar year before even inquiring about joining the staff.  They need to get out there and "get a life" outside of the cadet system or, often, they end up being what I call "cadet officers" rather than CIC officers.  It's my own terminology to separate those who want to work with cadets in some semblance of a professional manner from those who just want to extend their cadet careers and end up being 40 and still acting like an 18 year-old cadet.

Not every cadet corps, by virtue of geography, lack of qualified candidates or whatever, can afford to be that picky, though.

 

[myself.only]

My big question is why would any cadet corps recruit anyone as an OCdt that does not have the maturity to be in a position of authority?

Well, we can't leave them ALL for our Affiliated units!  ;D

A problem I've seen in the past was some corps recruiting their junior officers from aged out cadets. Some of these officers do not make the transition from cadet buddy to officer in charged well at all. Very careful screening in these cases should be done before an offer of employment is made.

Yeah, personally I call it the "Peter Pan syndrome" where really the ex-cadet is simply striving to continue his or her connection to the unit beyond 19.  Not a recipe for success until they realize they must accept their new role and find new ways to contribute.  I've sent a few of them to my Affiliated Regiment, told others to give it a year etc., some come back.

Having said that, I'd say immaturity is a constant in young officers in every MOSID/branch.  Rather than de-select them, isn't it a command responsibility to provide the guidance and mentorship to grow into the role of officer?  After all, there's never a single one-size fits all approach to how an ex-cadet or an ex-CAF member will work with a Corps/Sqn.  And, in the absence of crusty WOs, it falls to the more experienced CIC officers to sort them out.
My  :2c:

 

[my72jeep]

I always believed that CIC are part of the Canadian Forces as as such should act as such. When you skirt the rules and state Cadet organizations do things differently it's a crock. You can't have it both ways.To listen to complaints about your officers deficiencies is one thing, but to even begin to deal with recommendations on how they should be disciplined is wrong and in my opinion a failure of leadership. These civilians should cut off at the start of the subject and told clearly any discipline is a responsibility of the chain of command which they are not part of.

7 out of 10 times the Civi I'm listening to is a former member telling me how it would have been done back in the Guards/Watch/Calvary. Now as to following the suggestions, No It doesn't happen.

 

[The Bread Guy]

7 out of 10 times the Civi I'm listening to is a former member telling me how it would have been done back in the Guards/Watch/Calvary.

Wow, THAT's old and salty - when "centurion" was a rank, not a tank!

;D

 

[myself.only]

:rofl:

 

[my72jeep]

Wow, THAT's old and salty - when "centurion" was a rank, not a tank!

;D

Now that got the response I was looking for.

 

[Candari]

Well, I'm in the CIC with 20+ years in and I don't agree with everything you've said either.

The use of CIs at summer training centres is a special case, and are treated in regulations as such, because those placed in leadership positions are hired because they have specific qualifications that those in uniform just don't have (i.e. instructor pilots or sailing instructors and the like).  We give that a nod and a wink because we need to do that to make things work for the cadets at the CSTC level or courses just can't be run.

At the local headquarters, CIs and CVs are on staff to fill instructor positions or provide a specific set of skills when we simply don't have uniformed staff to fill those spots or have those quals.  Yes, sometimes these "instructors" might end up in non-training jobs - like supply - even when they are supposed to be employed like that.  But generalized CIs, are not employed to lead CF members as a normal part of their duties.  Civilian Volunteers are only employed to assist CIs and CIC officers - period.

Now, CIs can be tasked by a corps CO to run an activity.  Despite being nominally in charge, those of us in uniform are not under their command (authority, whatever you want to call it).  We *cooperate* with them by abiding with their directions to make the activity work but, in general, they are not the boss of us.

Now, the OP hasn't really given us the complete picture of the situation here.  To be honest, they didn't even use the term civilian to describe their volunteerism.  We have CF members out of Borden that are authorized to be "uniformed volunteers" for us. 

If this is for a specific activity and the OP is a Civilian Volunteer, yes, the OCdt might have been tasked to do a number of things for them.  If the OCdt is the waste of skin the OP claims then they should be talking to the TrgO or CO and let them handle it.  If a corps level CV or CI is in a position of authority over a CF member as part of their regular job, that needs to stop in a hurry.

*EDIT*
POSTED BY myself.only
You are comparing apples to oranges.  Your example is that of a civilian employee and not a civilian instructor.  The terms of reference for a CI are specific as to their primary function.  CV TORs are even more specific.

I do agree that I should shed more light to this situation. I was an officer released into SuppRes (Voluntary) and have taken up a league ID in my local cadet unit to help a bit with my expertise. It is true that I am put in an authoritative position in a constant manner over the OCdt.

My big question is why would any cadet corps recruit anyone as an OCdt that does not have the maturity to be in a position of authority?
A problem I've seen in the past was some corps recruiting their junior officers from aged out cadets. Some of these officers do not make the transition from cadet buddy to officer in charge well at all. Very careful screening in these cases should be done before an offer of employment is made.

The problem is there are individuals that have gone through all the loopholes to get itself in the system. I'm not positive if you know of the CIC process, but I was quite a shock when I heard the story as well.

Back on topic is that I will provide documentation to the cadet unit CO and it will be up to him on what he would like to do next regarding the mbr.