Meaning it...

[Jimmy SG]

This could be a sensitive subject, and it could invite a lot of people to kick off and call me naive and idealistic, but regardless...
I have spent a fair amount of time reading these boards logged and not. Before I became a member and after. I have noticed that when discussing places like Kndahar, or things like op Medusa or any of those of us who have fallen, there is a lot of anger and resentment. I am not saying that's wrong. I know people deal with loss and stress in a myriad of different ways. What I am wondering is whether or not as a general question the soldiers here on this forum meant it when they joined. Did most of you enlist with the idea of a steady paycheck or a new world of adventure? Maybe the idea that you wanted to go out and blow s*** up for the sake of blowing s*** up? Did anyone join with the idea that they wanted to fight for something bigger? The idea that maybe you were willing to risk your life for something bigger then your own life? Fight and risk dieing so that someone you never met in a country far away could live a safer, better life? I know that was a big part of why I joined (not the only reason mind) and that if something happened to me I would want people to know I would be here anyways. I would rather be doing something I believe in at the worst times then being anywhere else at the best. Am I alone or do we just forget...

Mods - I wasn't quite sure where to put this. I hope this is the place.

 

[armyvern]

Jimmy,

I can only suggest you start looking around some more threads in army.ca. I think you will find that the overwhelming majority of forum members, who have served voluntarily in the CF in the past, present, and those in the recruiting pipeline now hold themselves to the ideals which you are asking if you alone hold.

I have no idea where you've gotten this impression from. None whatsoever. I think the great majority of soldiers on this forum pride themselves in serving honourably, voluntarily, and professionally.

I have not noticed any anger or resentment expressed on this board in relation to our fallen comrades. Perhaps with the circumstances of our friends deaths, but certainly not with their honour, service and sacrifice. Yes indeed our fallen affect each and every one of us differently, some of us here were privileged to have known and served with these fallen brothers of ours; thus the reaction may be more visible. However that does not debase nor devalue the simple and professional post "We Will Remember Them" from someone who's only commonality with the fallen member was the great country in which they both voluntarily served in uniform.

I suggest, if your impression of this site is any different, that you visit this gallery, for they are here, and they are in our hearts.

All of these soldiers volunteered to serve their country in uniform wherever it sent them. Though they have fallen, their torch is still carried high by those of us who remain.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/index.php?action=gallery&g2_itemId=18019

And Jimmy,

Rest assured, you are not in the minority nor are you alone as a search of "Fallen Comrades" will reveal 5 pages of threads remembering our fallen; There is no anger or resentment, rather, in it's place, you will find that there is honour.



Edit: typo

 

[RHFC_piper]

This could be a sensitive subject, and it could invite a lot of people to kick off and call me naive and idealistic, but regardless...
I have spent a fair amount of time reading these boards logged and not. Before I became a member and after. I have noticed that when discussing places like Kndahar, or things like op Medusa or any of those of us who have fallen, there is a lot of anger and resentment. I am not saying that's wrong. I know people deal with loss and stress in a myriad of different ways. What I am wondering is whether or not as a general question the soldiers here on this forum meant it when they joined. Did most of you enlist with the idea of a steady paycheck or a new world of adventure? Maybe the idea that you wanted to go out and blow s*** up for the sake of blowing s*** up? Did anyone join with the idea that they wanted to fight for something bigger? The idea that maybe you were willing to risk your life for something bigger then your own life? Fight and risk dieing so that someone you never met in a country far away could live a safer, better life? I know that was a big part of why I joined (not the only reason mind) and that if something happened to me I would want people to know I would be here anyways. I would rather be doing something I believe in at the worst times then being anywhere else at the best. Am I alone or do we just forget...

I think you'll find (just from my perspective) that a lot of soldiers join for all the reasons you've stated.  Or joined for one (or some) of them, but found new reasons for staying once in.

Personally, I joined to serve my country and to satify my life long interest in the military (or as you put it; blow s**t up for the sake of blowing s**t up.), but through out my military career, I've run the gamut of reasons; After a few years of unit poverty (due to the construction of our new-ish armouries), and piss-poor exercises, I was just in it to kill time and make money. 

Once I spent a few years in the band, I was in it to have fun doing the things I liked to do, going on ex's when it suited me and playing my pipes. 

When I started pre-deployment training, and then subsequently deployed with 1 RCR in to a combat role, my entire view changed.  My job, which was once my hobby, now became very real and as serious as a heart attack.

Now that I've fought in combat (in Op Medusa), have been wounded, and have returned home, my views have changed again.  Long ago, my reserve unit might as well been a drinking club with guns, now that I've served in combat and returned, my unit, to me, is now a farming ground for future combatants going over to fight, and I am now in to ensure that they get the benifit of my experience and are better prepared than I was.

But I feel this isn't my only role; after working closely with Afghans, and seeing my progress, I feel that my other mission now is to help, as best I can, to inform the public about the reality of Canada's role in Afghanistan, from the perspective of a front line soldier.

So, essentially, what I'm trying to say is; I don't believe a soldier in today's military can commit themselves to just a single reason for being in.  Experience changes people, and their reasonings.


BTW;  I resent that remark about Op Medusa... I'm not full of anger and resentment, damnit... WHAT THE HELL DO YOU KNOW ABOUT IT... YOU WEREN'T EVEN THERE...

Just kidding... ;D it's all good... just messing with ya. :cheers:

 

[Roy Harding]

Jimmy SG;

You are extremely lucky that The Librarian got here first.  My reply would have been more vitriolic - and The Librarian said what I would have - only more eloquently.

I would suggest that YOU stop looking ONLY at those (surprisingly few) threads which contain the type of post which proves your point.  As The Librarian said - many of us knew some of the fallen - some of us were there when they fell - and YOU want to take us to task for expressing our sorrow (often expressed as anger)???

The Librarian has given you some good advice - take it, and start reading.


Roy Harding

 

[Sig_Des]

Jimmy.

Many people join for different reasons. That's not the important part. Everyone has different motives.

But just like becoming a police officer, or a fire fighter, when you sign up, you accept certain inherent risks. We all know they're there. We all accept them. We may not believe that anything will ever happen, but we know they might.

We are an armed force in conflict. We all know what that means. Do you mean it when you join? You must if you put yourself through a crappy time like BMQ/SQ/ Trades School/ Battle School.

Now as far as anger or resentment. I'm not sure if you mean at soldiers, or at the situation, or at the enemy.

In the last few years we have lost people who are our brothers and sisters. I MEAN that. To me, if you wear that uniform, if you go through it, you ARE my brother or sister. I may not like you, but you are family.

When you hear about friends being killed or hurt, it is one of the worst things ever. Imagine waking up the day after your birthday, and having a message from one of your Best Friend's wife, telling you that he has been wounded in combat. No holds barred, one of the shittiest things ever. And then biting your knuckles the rest of the day, watching the news, trying to find out more. I can only imagine the pain and anguish for spouses, parents, and those who are there.

I get sad, angry, and resentful when I see the names of people I know, people I've worked/trained/hung out with who've died, or been hurt. None of these feelings are aimed at them, but at the situation.

I'm furious as hell when I hear about a suicide bomber blowing himself up, taking innocents with him.

I remember a friend of mine once told me "You know Des, we're supposed to be calm and cool. But the first time I was shot at over there, I was F***ing ANGRY!!! That guy is trying to KILL me! I take that personally!"

Will we be bitter? Sure. Angry? You bet. In times of stress, emotions run the gamut.

But those are emotions that come with the game. And we move on, and we fight on, and we serve.

I'm not really sure what you mean with your post, or where you're coming from. I'm leaving for Afghanistan in the next little while. I know what that means, and I know what happens there, and I knew it was a distinct possibility when I joined. So no. We do not forget.

We are constantly REMINDED.

We NEVER forget.

And that is why we do that which is what we have sworn to do.

 

[Blunt Object]

I joined to blow shi* up because I thought it would be fun. And when I joined i knew there was a certain risk and I accepted it and thats all that matters.

 

[Jimmy SG]

I don't' mean that we forget their sacrifice or who they were. I am not saying it is not hard when people and hurt or pass on. And it is possible it worked out that the threads I have been reading are not the majority as I have not even come close to reading or will probably ever read all threads on the site. The overall point may be that I worry that the loss breeds hate. I think (and I can never for sure) that if something happened to me I would not want my friends to feel that way to the situation or the people responsible. I may not have been specific enough with what I was saying.

And feel free to slam me if you think I am being disrespectful, it is not the intent.

 

[Jimmy SG]

I probably should have added that what I meant by forget was do we forget that the guy next to us probably holds the same values.

 

[Sig_Des]

Not everyone will hold the exact same values.

As far as hatred, I can't say for sure. Every individual will react differently when trying to deal with something. Some may hate, some may just be angry.

Anger and resentment doesn't necessarily equate hatred.

I don't think you're being disrespectful now that I understand more where you're coming from, just wasn't too clear from your original posts. It seemed like you could have been questioning peoples motives when they joined, or their commitment when faced with adversity.

 

[Roy Harding]

Jimmy SG:

If you are truly interested in this subject, I strongly recommend you read "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill" byLt. Col. Dave Grossman.

You can get it here:

http://www.amazon.ca/Killing-Dave-Grossman/dp/0316330116/sr=8-1/qid=1170867193/ref=pd_ka_1/701-6647076-6136314?ie=UTF8&s=books

Your initial post did come across (to me) as disrespectful.  I'll give your question more thought and (perhaps) post a more thought out answer to it later.

Roy

 

[armyvern]

I probably should have added that what I meant by forget was do we forget that the guy next to us probably holds the same values.

Jimmy can you please clarify your exact meaning now. First you are saying that you are worried that our soldiers deaths seem to breed hate??

Then that the guy next to us probably holds the same values??

1) The loss of our fellow soldiers may indeed breed "hate" or a definite dislike for the 'other side'. The 'other side' is the enemy. Our enemy is the Taliban and the insurgents whom we are struggling against with the support of the citizens of Afghanistan. Do soldiers deaths breed a hatred of all citizens of Afghanistan, which is certainly what you seem to infer is the case? No. Read through this site. Because Canadian soldiers are indeed the best in the world, we are quite capable of, and are actually quite practised in distinguishing our enemies actions from those of the average local populace. To suggest anything otherwise is absurd.

2) Which guy next to us? Certainly not our enemy? Do we hold the same values as those average Afghan citizens whom we are supporting in their struggle for democracy and peace for their families and country? Absolutely!!

Do we hold the same values as our enemy, those Taliban and insurgents with whom we struggle? Absolutely not. Their values are inclusive of, but not limited to, no rights for women, no education for girls, no flying kites for kids of either sex, no voicing of your personal opinion or disillusionment, no democratic process, and no rights to fair trial. Rather they would rather shoot you, stone you or behead you, based on your values being different from theirs. No, thankfully, I do not share those values of oppression with my enemy.

 

[Jimmy SG]

In my original post I was attempting to ask if peoples values in the military were what I believed or if they were so different from person to person that group ethics didn't apply. I would believe that we are all coming from the same place. That place being that we are working towards something we believe while acknowledging and accepting the risks. Apparently this came off more as me questioning others values rather then implying that I believe and hope the majority of the military would feel that way. When I refer to loss breeding hate I am referring to the loss of Canadian Soldiers and varying levels of hate (there are several). When I mention "the guy next to me" I am referring to troops on the ground who have "the guy next to them " or in front of them step on a mine or have members of their section killed by a suicide bomber. And whether or not, when it comes to their grieving process, those people remember what the values of the person who was hurt or killed were or what they would have wanted had they known it was going to happen. Does it enter that process to consider that those people may (and I use may because everyone is different) have still gone and accomplished what they did knowing what would happen. When discussing direction and levels of "hate" that becomes a related but more difficult subject. Every person deals with anger differently. Where I like to think a lot of people make distinctions between insurgents and local populace I also know for a fact that in many minds it is more shades of grey then black and white.
This was meant to be a question of how people felt about these issues, and has become more about me defending my respect for those I work with and those who have fallen. Fair enough, no one here really knows me, so my own ethics and values are fair game. But this wasn't my intent. If this is irritating people I can drop the topic and explore my thoughts and concerns in another way. I just thought since there are so many people with so much experience on the forum, that there might be someone here who has considered the same thing or would have insight.

 

[2 Cdo]

I joined for the simple pleasures of being paid to shoot and blow stuff up (Hey I was young!). Along the way I learned about pride, honour, integrity, and the fact that people I met in the infantry and only knew for a few months or more, I could trust more than my civvy buddies that I grew up with. As far as anger during tours, there is nothing particularly wrong with that. Anger towards an enemy is good, along with respecting your enemies abilities in order to make your job easier to kill him.

Jimmy everyone has a different reason for joining, those that stay the full 20-25 years sometimes develop a love for the military, some stay strictly for the paycheck. The bottom line is you will rarely find that people joined for the exact same reasons.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I joined for the simple pleasures of being paid to shoot and blow stuff up (Hey I was young!). Along the way I learned about pride, honour, integrity, and the fact that people I met in the infantry and only knew for a few months or more, I could trust more than my civvy buddies that I grew up with. As far as anger during tours, there is nothing particularly wrong with that. Anger towards an enemy is good, along with respecting your enemies abilities in order to make your job easier to kill him.

Jimmy everyone has a different reason for joining, those that stay the full 20-25 years sometimes develop a love for the military, some stay strictly for the paycheck. The bottom line is you will rarely find that people joined for the exact same reasons.

+1

 

[Just a Guy]

The joining "for reasons" whatever they may be, as a young man or woman are surely different from those that motivate us to serve as we grow and mature personally and professionally.  As a relatively junior member of the Force (at about 10 years in) I once asked a very senior member "why the hell would anyone want your job"  His reply has stuck with me forever, he described the stages of his career the vastly humbling experience of being entrusted with Command and gradually realizing that early on in our careers we are being served, but that it changes and the call comes to serve. Invariably it means doing the things you didn't want to do, but knowing they need to be done and done well. In today's environment I would suggest that the point where individuals start to serve is no less significant but quite probably significantly earlier than it was for the Cold War generation. The challenge of our time is not the War on Terror, nor the gut wrenching emotion of combat but rather accepting that our country needs soldiers, sailors and airman to answer the call, everyday.
We are blessed that so many do......

 

[Roy Harding]

Jimmy SG:

Despite my original pique at your question, I've decided to come back to this thread - perhaps I can be of some little help to your quest.

When I originally joined the Infantry (in 1977 at 17 years of age), I wanted to "blow stuff up", because I thought that would be neat.  And I was right - it WAS neat!  I only lasted my original three year engagement and got out (voluntarily) barely ahead of a disciplinary release - I just didn't "get it".

I married my girl in 1980, and I became a general construction labourer in Calgary during the LAST oil boom.  In 1981 we had our first son - life was good.  In 1982 the boom went bust, I was unemployed, I had a wife and child to feed - I went to the recruiting office - the first trade they offered to me was Adm Clk - I took it in a New York minute.

So - my motivations for joining??  "Blowing stuff up", and economic realities.  Hmmm ... not many principles there.

As my career progressed, I remained interested in "blowing stuff up" - so I volunteered for the Canadian Airborne Regiment - where we did indeed "blow stuff up" (even us Adm Clks).  During my time in the Airborne I was sent to Iran as part of UNIIMOG (This was the UN mission which assisted at the end of the 80 - 88 Iran/Iraq war).  The details aren't important, but that was when I first saw the devastation, destruction, and horror that war produces.  During my one year there I helped "bag and tag" bodies of "combatants" as young as 12 years old (as far as the forensic experts could ascertain).  It was during that tour that I began to form a set of principles (and, perhaps, began to grow up).

During subsequent years, and subsequent tours (mostly in the Former Republic of Yugoslavia - which you will see described here as "FRY"), I saw many more horrors.  And it was during the first of those tours that I first sent the body of a fallen comrade home.  My principles became stronger - enhanced by the experience of the men who lead me; some of them (in my early years) Korean War vets.

Time went on, I saw more destruction - and more of my comrades came home in body bags, or with terrible wounds.  These weren't (for the most part) the heroes of any battles - most were mine-strike victims, some were vehicle accident victims, some were suicides.  And yet, I saw the lives of local citizens steadily improving - I saw previously sullen and fearful children laugh and play, I saw destroyed monuments, buildings, and even towns rebuilt.  My principles became even more firmly entrenched.

Most of this took place in the '90s when the Canadian public wasn't informed, and seemingly didn't care about what was going on in the world (or to its' soldiers).

It became a matter of principle to me that "rough men stand ready" in order that others may sleep calmly in their beds, and that the innocent may be protected.  It became clear to me that I was part of a great force for good - that I (and my comrades) were playing a part, no matter how small, in a battle against evil - protecting the innocent - preserving civilization against the onslaught of barbarism (although this sounds hyperbolic, even operatic - I use this language to bring the point home as quickly and forcefully as I am able). 

This is called perspective - I gained perspective through experience - as does everyone.  The perspective that I gained over a decade of experience is gained by our current warriors in the space of months - their experience is much more intense than mine.  Perspective grants you the ability to form solid principles.

In the aftermath of 9/11 I happened to be in a CSS leadership position in 3 PPCLI.  As you know, we deployed to Afghanistan in '02 on Op APOLLO.  More death.  Imagine my surprise when my subordinates let me know that they held fast to MY principles, and in some cases used them as the basis for forming their own.  Just as I had used the previously mentioned Korean War vets principles to begin to form my own.

To answer your question; as others have said - everybody joins for their own reasons.  I stayed because I have hard won principles - I have seen things that give weight and depth to those principles.  Those principles were formed by, and therefore have solid meaning out there in the big, bad world.

Did I become angry?  Damned straight.  Did I at times despair??  Absolutely.  Was I ever afraid?  Without doubt.  Did I ever doubt myself and my principles?  Every damned day.

And yet, and yet ... I kept doing it because my principles and perspective told me that it's the right thing to do.  As do many current and retired members of the CF, including many on these forums.

Your profile tells me that you are 23.  You're right to question these things - even at the risk of unintentionally raising the ire of some old fart.

My experience tells me that you will arrive at the answers to your questions on your own, given time to gain perspective.

Good luck to you.


Roy

 

[Jimmy SG]

Thank-you.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

<snip>

When I originally joined the Infantry (in 1977 at 17 years of age), I wanted to "blow stuff up", because I thought that would be neat.  And I was right - it WAS neat!  I only lasted my original three year engagement and got out (voluntarily) barely ahead of a disciplinary release - I just didn't "get it".

If you wanted to "blow stuff up" you should have joined the Engineers  ;D and not the Infantry

 

[armyvern]

If you wanted to "blow stuff up" you should have joined the Engineers  ;D and not the Infantry

I think though that there were some Infanteers known as "pioneers" waaaaaay back when.....

 

[Gronk]

Great post Roy