Married but paying for rations while on course.

[once a gunner]

this whole thing sickens me.......I think that married or not.......anyone on course for mil trg, should get free R&Q.  Once you finish trg, and live in shacks / PMQ's then you are responsible for your own R&Q.  what's comming next.....a rental fee for use of the uniforms we have to wear? 

 

[DAA]

OK... So I have some more information regarding this.  My PO gave me a copy of an email that pertains to this subject, and was sent through our trade career manager from the BTL management.

Basically, the crux of it is that any BTL NCM students that who were enrolled before 1 Sep 12 and will remain on the BTL after 1 Feb 13 are among those who qualify for this.  (NCMs who are in training now at different units, and NCM-SEPs are among the numbers)

If the member is leaving CFLRS to their next unit, CFLRS will remain the parent unit, and the member will be sent to the next training location on Attached Posting.

NCM-SEP students will remain posted with their applicable ULO and sent on to their next training location after graduation on Attached Posting.

Anyone who is already Prohibited Posted and on their courses (like me), and wre entitled to R&Q at public expense, will be posted RESTRICTED out of thier schools and into their first employing unit by the D Mil C Career Managers.  The employing units will immediately Attach Post the students back to the school to complete their training.  After graduating the required training, the member would THEN move to their employing unit, and the gaining CO will be able to lift the restrictions and allow the move of family and HG&E.

As far as I know, this only applies to NCMs under the old rules.  I was also told that a new CANFORGEN should be out soon about this, but the email was sent now, just in case the CANFORGEN isn't released by 1 Feb 13, so that our staff and clerks have some sort of guideline...

So now, we wait and see what happens next, I guess...

That's one way to sort of solve the problem.  The only follow on issues to something like this would be with respect to training failures but that would be addressed in due course.

 

[NavyHopeful]

this whole thing sickens me.......I think that married or not.......anyone on course for mil trg, should get free R&Q.  Once you finish trg, and live in shacks / PMQ's then you are responsible for your own R&Q.

It would allow for some kind of equality, I'm sure.  But that sort of argument is a bit out of my lane.  I only know what I know.

That's one way to sort of solve the problem.  The only follow on issues to something like this would be with respect to training failures but that would be addressed in due course.

It will certainly make it easier to post people out of BMQ.  As for the members on qualification courses right now (like myself), it will definitely add more paperwork to their file.  But as long as the problem has been or gets resolved, it'll go a long way to assist the members caught in the crossfire.

what's comming next.....a rental fee for use of the uniforms we have to wear? 

With all the kit Navy personnel get issued, I certainly hope not...  Could you imagine the cost?

 

[kratz]

[quote author=NavyHopeful]With all the kit Navy personnel get issued, I certainly hope not...  Could you imagine the cost?
[/quote]

/off topic

You have not seen how much kit our friends in green are issued.

/on topic

 

[jwtg]

this whole thing sickens me.......I think that married or not.......anyone on course for mil trg, should get free R&Q.  Once you finish trg, and live in shacks / PMQ's then you are responsible for your own R&Q.  what's comming next.....a rental fee for use of the uniforms we have to wear?

I always heard that the reason for waiving R&Q is so that people aren't paying for R&Q as well as rent and groceries.  In the case of a married member, like myself, my wife and I eat perfectly well on 400-450$ a month in groceries.  I would be paying more than it costs my family for groceries if I were required to pay rations while on course; I also pay rent, so paying for rations & quarters when it's the CF who is imposing the separation and added expense doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

The flaws I see with your logic are that people could join off the street and freeload despite not having to pay R&Q anywhere else (Joe graduates from college where he lived at home, enrolls in the CF and moves out of mommy's house for the first time, and goes on to live for free, courtesy of the taxpayers).  This seems like an irresponsible use of taxpayers money to me.

The most obvious example I can think of is RMC- essentially a 4 year long 'course' with other courses occurring during the summers.  RMC cadets pay R&Q and it makes sense to have them continue to do so.  The exceptions to the rule are those cadets who are married/common-law and who have spouses elsewhere, either in Kingston or elsewhere.

 

[Quellefille]

this whole thing sickens me.......I think that married or not.......anyone on course for mil trg, should get free R&Q.  Once you finish trg, and live in shacks / PMQ's then you are responsible for your own R&Q.  what's comming next.....a rental fee for use of the uniforms we have to wear?

Well the thing is the guys living in the shacks with no family, their stuff is being held in storage, at the gov'ts expense so the gov't is paying for their lodgings, but not paying twice

As for food, well the guys with a family back home are already buying groceries and they could be fed at home for a fraction of the cost.  Wheras Pvt. Bloggins with no family isn't buying any groceries.


Question though, from someone who doesn't speak acronym:  BTL means what?

 

[Ostrozac]

Question though, from someone who doesn't speak acronym:  BTL means what?

The BTL is the Basic Training List -- in general terms, it's the positions that exist for personnel who are undergoing initial training and have not yet reached their first operational unit. It is also used for personnel that are in the process of transferring from one occupation to another -- this means that when you are undergoing initial training you are not assigned to a position in an operational unit.

There is also a similar thing called the Advanced Training List -- this is used for things like year long French courses... if your Company Commander needs a year long French course, he can be posted to the ATL, allowing another Major to move into his old spot and command that company. If he was just Temporary Duty or Attached Posted to a language school, he would still be assigned to his old position, and he couldn't be backfilled.

 

[armyvern]

The BTL is the Basic Training List -- in general terms, it's the positions that exist for personnel who are undergoing initial training and have not yet reached their first operational unit. It is also used for personnel that are in the process of transferring from one occupation to another -- this means that when you are undergoing initial training you are not assigned to a position in an operational unit.

There is also a similar thing called the Advanced Training List -- this is used for things like year long French courses... if your Company Commander needs a year long French course, he can be posted to the ATL, allowing another Major to move into his old spot and command that company. If he was just Temporary Duty or Attached Posted to a language school, he would still be assigned to his old position, and he couldn't be backfilled.

I await the rumored upcoming CANFORGEN (if true: nothing like waiting until the last minute to communicate  ... yet again). 

I think it will be interesting to see if it addresses BTL in the manner someone suggested below and if ATL pers will be treated in the same respect - else we have just set yet another double standard.  I was posted restricted to the ATL for the 10 month SLT at a location away from where my spouse was posted to/family was at.  I haven't been posted to the same base as my spouse since (we've both had other postings since my "year"-long course), just not to the same places as each other.

I am quite looking forward to that same system reducing me to rent only eff 01 Feb (what about my other expenses that I too am already paying for at home? Basic phone so I can call and actually TALK to my family? My laundry expenses because I have to use a laundromat here but own and pay for washer/dryer at home etc etc etc?? Not even to mention that our family now requires two vehicles for work purposes/travel each day).  If the above groups are treated in same manner, then we have yet another double standard between them ... and us who have been posted "not through choice" to a location separated from our families for even longer periods of time than a 10 month long course etc.  Should they be covered and me not because the CF only chose to post them away from their families for 1-2 years on courses while they chose to post me away from mine for 4+ years now??

 

[Quellefille]

I am quite looking forward to that same system reducing me to rent only eff 01 Feb (what about my other expenses that I too am already paying for at home? Basic phone so I can call and actually TALK to my family? My laundry expenses because I have to use a laundromat here but own and pay for washer/dryer at home etc etc etc?? Not even to mention that our family now requires two vehicles for work purposes/travel each day).  If the above groups are treated in same manner, then we have yet another double standard between them ... and us who have been posted "not through choice" to a location separated from our families for even longer periods of time than a 10 month long course etc.  Should they be covered and me not because the CF only chose to post them away from their families for 1-2 years on courses while they chose to post me away from mine for 4+ years now??

I feel for you.  This canforgen was meant to address the people abusing the IR system, and its really just screwing over those who don't.  And it seems that the push is to fix if for folks like my husband, on BTL, vs you, who've given your all and already made huge sacrifices.  Which isn't fair cause honestly, the army needs folks like you just as much if not slightly more than new folks like my husband

 

[NavyHopeful]

I feel for you.  This canforgen was meant to address the people abusing the IR system, and its really just screwing over those who don't.  And it seems that the push is to fix if for folks like my husband, on BTL, vs you, who've given your all and already made huge sacrifices.  Which isn't fair cause honestly, the army needs folks like you just as much if not slightly more than new folks like my husband

:goodpost:

 

[peacelove]

Looking forward to seeing this new CANFORGEN.

Hopefully it will contain actual policies and not vague brainstorming. 

 

[Quellefille]

Several ladies on the Military Spouses board on facebook have been saying their husbands are being posted, so even with no Canforgen, the plan for guys to be posted and then put on TD for their 3s is proceeding as normal.

Now if only they'd fix it for the MSCs.

 

[DAA]

The problem has been addressed as best it could.  Personnel enrolled prior to 1 Sep 12 will be sort of "grand-fathered" by way of "creative posting instrs" and will not be paying for R&Q until they are occupationally trained and off the BTL.  Those who enrolled 1 Sep 12 and on are considered to "have been advised of the cost implications for entry level training and agreed to the impacts before enrolling in the CF."

There is no mention of MSC's, pers who underwent an OT, CT or any other current serving member.  From what I can tell, this ONLY applies to "new enrolments" which occurred prior to 1 Sep 12.

Not much more can be done.

 

[Quellefille]

I think they're also doing the creative instructions for those underwent an OT.

 

[SentryMAn]

This new system is making me very nervous, I am not in the CF but have an application in for Log O.  I am married, maintain an apartment and such now.  If I am sent away on training and have to pay R & Q I hope I will at ateast be able to claim the expense on my taxes come April.  It would fall under the realm of mandatory work expenses required to complete the job I am employed to do.
But I think I have a different situation where I have already done BMOQ and some trade trg.

 

[DAA]

If I am sent away on training and have to pay R & Q I hope I will at ateast be able to claim the expense on my taxes come April.  It would fall under the realm of mandatory work expenses required to complete the job I am employed to do.

An interesting concept but I don't think it will work.  You would need the CF to complete a T2200 on your behalf and that just isn't going to happen.  Mind you, filing annual Income Tax returns is a personal matter, so you can pretty much claim anything that you think you're entitled to.  The problem comes when CRA decides to audit you because your claiming something that you have never claimed before and seems out of the ordinary.  And then you need the paperwork/documentation to back up your claim.

There are a few things to consider on this front.  That you are considered to be a "salaried employee" and that the CF/DND have paid for your travelling expenses to get you to your place of employment.

At the very least, you should not be paying for "quarters", as a result of a "Prohibited" posting.  Other than that, your on your own.

 

[NavyHopeful]

OK... So I have some more information regarding this.  My PO gave me a copy of an email that pertains to this subject, and was sent through our trade career manager from the BTL management.

Basically, the crux of it is that any BTL NCM students that who were enrolled before 1 Sep 12 and will remain on the BTL after 1 Feb 13 are among those who qualify for this.  (NCMs who are in training now at different units, and NCM-SEPs are among the numbers)

If the member is leaving CFLRS to their next unit, CFLRS will remain the parent unit, and the member will be sent to the next training location on Attached Posting.

NCM-SEP students will remain posted with their applicable ULO and sent on to their next training location after graduation on Attached Posting.

Anyone who is already Prohibited Posted and on their courses (like me), and wre entitled to R&Q at public expense, will be posted RESTRICTED out of thier schools and into their first employing unit by the D Mil C Career Managers.  The employing units will immediately Attach Post the students back to the school to complete their training.  After graduating the required training, the member would THEN move to their employing unit, and the gaining CO will be able to lift the restrictions and allow the move of family and HG&E.

As far as I know, this only applies to NCMs under the old rules.  I was also told that a new CANFORGEN should be out soon about this, but the email was sent now, just in case the CANFORGEN isn't released by 1 Feb 13, so that our staff and clerks have some sort of guideline...

So now, we wait and see what happens next, I guess...

Further news on this...

New people have been arriving at CFNES, and if they fall into this category, they have been Attached Posted.  The ones who were here before (like me) have now been posted back to BTL at NDHQ, and then Attached Posted back to CFNES.

As for the rumoured CANFORGEN, the only things I have seen coming through the Message Centre are creeative posting messages, and retroactive attach postings.

To anyone who thinks they fell through the cracks on this, I advise you to seek help from your CoC.  Mine went to bat for the bunch of us here in this situation, and I'm sure that if you are one of the candidates who meet the criteria, they will be more than willing to help you out.

Good luck to all!

Rev

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So it appears the tide is turning and the people who are posted (prohibited) while attending basic and initial occupation/classification trg are starting to be looked after.  That is good to see.

 

[TCM621]

The problem has been addressed as best it could.  Personnel enrolled prior to 1 Sep 12 will be sort of "grand-fathered" by way of "creative posting instrs" and will not be paying for R&Q until they are occupationally trained and off the BTL.  Those who enrolled 1 Sep 12 and on are considered to "have been advised of the cost implications for entry level training and agreed to the impacts before enrolling in the CF."

There is no mention of MSC's, pers who underwent an OT, CT or any other current serving member.  From what I can tell, this ONLY applies to "new enrolments" which occurred prior to 1 Sep 12.

Not much more can be done.!

This is no longer the case.  As of today, I was informed I will be paying rations back dated to 1 Feb. AT The last briefing shortly after the beg. Of Feb we were told SA was gone but rations and quarters were were paid for. The cbi reflected that. Now it is just quarters. Anyone who doesn't want to move there family was advanced posted then TDed back. Those of us who are moving our families but are going unaccompanied while the sale of our house goes through are fucked.
At least when they were going to duck us over in sept they gave us some notice. I can't even delink because air command has forbidden it.

Needless to say I am pissed. I have never been more upset  and disappointed in my 17 years in the CF

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I can't even delink because air command has forbidden it.

Needless to say I am pissed. I have never been more upset  and disappointed in my 17 years in the CF

That is certainly NOT the case.  THere is a CANAIRGEN of recent release authorizing the de-linking of R & Q and the specifics that go along with the ability to do this.  It was late 2012/early 2013.

Take a look for it.  I won't be back to work until Thurs, or would post it.

Also, FWIW, this was not a policy that the CF went looking for, rather it was from the TB.  At the end of the day, AFC/Snr Leadership is like the rest of us, and when they are issued marching orders, they are expected to carry them out.  :2c:

Now, I will ALSO add that, IF the government is looking for ways to save money, great, but is there not a BETTER way to do it, like cutting out actual wasteful spending first?  :