Marine Corps probe video showing troops "urinating on dead Taliban"

[jollyjacktar]

But,
What else do we call acts in contravention of the LOAC and Geneva Conventions? This recent act wasn't just against a single nation's code of justice rather it is also against international codes that the US was signatory to..

Yes, what was done was a crime and in a combat zone.  So yes, I agree technically you could term their actions a "war crime".  However, again the gravity of what was done would I feel cheapen the term.  Look at all the "war criminals" who are on CBSA's naughty list.  These are murderers and other associated serious bad asses.  I don't see anyone listed who took a piss.  Further, of our more recent CF vintage when former Capt. Semrau was being tried not once did I hear anyone use this term in respect to his case.  One when set against the other again pales by comparison.  These Marines have conducted a breach of service discipline, I prefer to think of it that way and will save the "WC" title for acts that are well, more weighty.  Perhaps the JAG's should come up with a better term for these lighter offenses so's not to cheapen the term.

 

[Fatalize]

Seems like a great way to add fuel to the fire, right after agreeing to peace talks between the taliban and the US government.

 

[armyvern]

Yes, what was done was a crime and in a combat zone.  So yes, I agree technically you could term their actions a "war crime".  However, again the gravity of what was done would I feel cheapen the term.  Look at all the "war criminals" who are on CBSA's naughty list.  These are murderers and other associated serious bad asses.  I don't see anyone listed who took a piss.  Further, of our more recent CF vintage when former Capt. Semrau was being tried not once did I hear anyone use this term in respect to his case.  One when set against the other again pales by comparison.  These Marines have conducted a breach of service discipline, I prefer to think of it that way and will save the "WC" title for acts that are well, more weighty.  Perhaps the JAG's should come up with a better term for these lighter offenses so's not to cheapen the term.

It isn't "me" terming their actions contrary to Geneva Conventions and the LOAC a war crime. 

Again, on scale, smaller contraventions are still contraventions. You may not like the terminology, but that's the way it goes. You tell me what else this action is and what to call it then. Defiling a deceased enemy? Photographing such (or even a live prisoner) for placement on 'public display'? Guess what that falls under in the rules these troops were applicable to at the time the offence occurred.

Based on the "scale" of this contravention, is in an act likely to see them exported to the ICC in The Hague à la Milosovic? Certainly not and it will be handled by their home nation instead, but it still is what it is. Things like rape and robbery occur daily in North America and elsewhere, but guess what they too are called when they are perpetrated by professional soldiers while in War Zones?

Oh, and perhaps you need to google "Semrau" and "War Crime" in the same search line to see how often both were actually written about/talked about in the same breath.

 

[jollyjacktar]

It isn't "me" terming their actions contrary to Geneva Conventions and the LOAC a war crime. 

Sure, but some day you may yet rule the world. 

Again, on scale, smaller contraventions are still contraventions. You may not like the terminology, but that's the way it goes. You tell me what else this action is and what to call it then. Defiling a deceased enemy? Photographing such (or even a live prisoner) for placement on 'public display'? Guess what that falls under in the rules these troops were applicable to at the time the offence occurred. 

By our Criminal Code (which I know does not apply to this instance), there is a section and description that if they were our troops could and would come into play perhaps how about this?
182. Dead body
182. Every one who  (a) neglects, without lawful excuse, to perform any duty that is imposed on him by law or that he undertakes with reference to the burial of a dead human body or human remains, or  (b) improperly or indecently interferes with or offers any indignity to a dead human body or human remains, whether buried or not,
is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 178.

Oh, and perhaps you need to google "Semrau" and "War Crime" in the same search line to see how often both were actually written about/talked about in the same breath.

Honestly, perhaps I was blind to it.  But I don't recall the term WC being bandied about at the time.  Murder, yes.  Disgraceful behavior, yes.  However, the gravity of that case would not be watering down the term and it is good and proper.  If "WC, WC!" is used at the drop of a hat, soon it may lose it's impact and meaning.  When I think WC, I have visions of Nazi Germany, Rawanda, Yugo, Cambodia, My Lai at the forefront of my mind's eye.

Frankly, I'm impressed these guys had it in them to take a piss.  The time I was outside the wire, it was, and I was so friggin hot and dehydrated most of the time I can about count how many times I took a leak on my hand.  Don't get me wrong.  They have it coming and will receive an accounting. 

 

[The Bread Guy]

Honestly, perhaps I was blind to it.  But I don't recall the term WC being bandied about at the time. 

Sadly, ArmyVern is bang on - here's the Google link.

Two quick points....

1)  I think the term "war crime" is a strong one, in part, because of how frequently it's used (appropriately or not) in MSM.

2)  Like it or not, breaking the laws of war = being a war criminal, the same way you're a criminal if you break this bit of the Criminal Code of Canada or if you break this one.  The difference will lie in the punishment, for sure, but breaking the law=breaking the law.

 

[brihard]

Based on the "scale" of this contravention, is in an act likely to see them exported to the ICC in The Hague à la Milosovic? Certainly not and it will be handled by their home nation instead, but it still is what it is.

Worth noting here that the ICC is intended to be a 'court of last resort' when competent, impartial and credible judiciaries are not available in a nation that holds jurisdiction. It's not a default go-to for anything that could come under the 'war crime' ambit.

Sorry, I'll quit being a law nerd.

 

[armyvern]

Sure, but some day you may yet rule the world. 
By our Criminal Code (which I know does not apply to this instance), there is a section and description that if they were our troops could and would come into play perhaps how about this?
182. Dead body
182. Every one who  (a) neglects, without lawful excuse, to perform any duty that is imposed on him by law or that he undertakes with reference to the burial of a dead human body or human remains, or  (b) improperly or indecently interferes with or offers any indignity to a dead human body or human remains, whether buried or not,
is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.
R.S., c. C-34, s. 178.

Most nations with professional military's have National Codes of Justice for those military members whose regulations also cover international laws to which they are also party to. No surprise there. Torture would be another example. As would murder be. Witness Somalia where trials also occured in Canada under our Nations law. Now, witness other history when some nations either "allowed" or refused to try (at their own national level) contraventions of such war crimes even when they were signatory to the International Laws ... they found their "bad guys" nabbed and tried before the ICC in place instead. The last resort.  In places like Canada, we choose to enforce those laws at our own national level as a routine matter. Other nations, not so much. Bosnia, Rwanda etc. The use of the words "war crimes" in the US right now in relation to this event tells me that the US is taking this matter very seriously and not brushing it off as just an "oh well, they are frustrated front line troops". Frustrated or not, professional troops remain professional in their actions and behaviour --- again, this (humanity) is what differentiates "us" and the enemy in this instance. When we who are professional and humane at what we do stoop so low as to defile the dead (and further to laugh about it, video it and post for the world to see), we are kneeling at the enemy's level. I don't like being on my knees.

Honestly, perhaps I was blind to it.  But I don't recall the term WC being bandied about at the time.  Murder, yes.  Disgraceful behavior, yes.  However, the gravity of that case would not be watering down the term and it is good and proper.  If "WC, WC!" is used at the drop of a hat, soon it may lose it's impact and meaning.  When I think WC, I have visions of Nazi Germany, Rawanda, Yugo, Cambodia, My Lai at the forefront of my mind's eye.

Frankly, I'm impressed these guys had it in them to take a piss.  The time I was outside the wire, it was, and I was so friggin hot and dehydrated most of the time I can about count how many times I took a leak on my hand.  Don't get me wrong.  They have it coming and will receive an accounting.

Everyone has to piss sometime. Maslow would confirm that; it is a basic human need. Busy and dehydrated or not, if one can not take the extra .05 seconds out of their day to to avoid pissing on an enemy dead (ie they instead did such a thing purposefully and with intent placing in jeopardy the good works of thousands of other actual professionals) --- I have no time for them. Let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Jarnhamar]

The problem with the "Acting like A**holes" strategy is essentially you need to go "all in" at that point; any backtracking at all becomes interpreted as a sign of weakness.

Now this isn't to say this can't be done; the Romans use it quite effectively against their insurgencies to the point a saying came down to us: "The Romans create a wilderness, and call it peace".

That sort of attitude simply does not square with our values, nor would it create the desired end effects, and indeed the expenditure of resources to effectively create a scorched earth policy on a provincial or national scale would be so great as to render the entire exercise moot; we would be bankrupted long before the exercise was over and unable to perform any branches or sequals resulting from these actions. Far better to emulate Governor Joseph Gallieni's tache d'huile strategy, which has also been demonstrated to work since the 1890's.

Keeping in mind I'm punching way above my weight in a conversation like this, our strategy doesn't seem to be working.

We throw money at every problem and 10 years later we don't seem much farther down the path to victory.  Our local allies are used to money and we know where they will go if we start clawing some of that back. Heck how many Taliban do we pay to moonlight as security during the day? Talk about job security.
I'm not sure what constitutes as victory anyways.  A democratic government? That's doesn't seem to jive very well with their values. Look at who we have for the president over there.  How do we change that?  10 years later and they have less amenities than when the Taliban were in power.
We're going to end up coming to a peace agreement and we'll be told that they aren't bad anymore, they're a kinder newer gentler Taliban-under new management  ;D

I think one of the reasons why we are possibly seeing professional soldiers like these guys doing something so stupid is that they are getting burnt out.
It's never an excuse but I can see it wearing down the walls of common sense. A blackhawk door gunner I chatted with at KAF was telling me that he did a tour in Iraq and was supposed to go home but got sent to Afghanistan again. He was going to be sent home again but they were making him stay longer. (that was a while ago, maybe it's changed?

Some of our guys go pretty stupid in Cyprus after a 6 month tour.  Pushing over a year and a half?  It's not an excuse but maybe the US should look at shorter tours. Sending guys home when they're supposed to go home. It could help.
I put a lot of blame on the current generations practical need to post stupid things to social media. I've asked people who posted stupid shit why they did it and their answer is always the same. I didn't think about it.

In an army of hundreds of thousands they're bound to get some shit birds.  Just like grief tourism,  people thrive on this stuff. 

 

[jollyjacktar]

Busy and dehydrated or not, if one can not take the extra .05 seconds out of their day to to avoid pissing on an enemy dead (ie they instead did such a thing purposefully and with intent placing in jeopardy the good works of thousands of other actual professionals) --- I have no time for them. Let the chips fall where they may.

Agreed.

 

[Journeyman]

Sure, but some day you may yet rule the world. 

Sadly, ArmyVern is bang on

Did anyone else shudder just then?  ;D

 

[GAP]

Did anyone else shudder just then?  ;D

Nah, I think you're just having nervous flinches.......I wonder why?

 

[daftandbarmy]

Some of our guys go pretty stupid in Cyprus after a 6 month tour.  Pushing over a year and a half?  It's not an excuse but maybe the US should look at shorter tours. Sending guys home when they're supposed to go home. It could help.
I put a lot of blame on the current generations practical need to post stupid things to social media. I've asked people who posted stupid crap why they did it and their answer is always the same. I didn't think about it.

In an army of hundreds of thousands they're bound to get some crap birds.  Just like grief tourism,  people thrive on this stuff.

It doesn't matter how long you've been on ops or how tired you are. There is no excuse. It's as simple as leaders at all levels saying 'cut it out' when people are doing something that's obviously stupid. Where they don't, stuff like this happens.

 

[X Royal]

It's as simple as leaders at all levels saying 'cut it out' when people are doing something that's obviously stupid. Where they don't, stuff like this happens.

Stuff like this will and does happen, and blaming poor leadership for it can be far from correct.
Even if leadership has shown zero tolerance for these type of things they still may occur. Failure to express expected behavior would be a lack of leadership.
A lack of leadership also occurs when these incidents occur and they fail to act on them, instead turning a blind eye to them hoping it will go away.

 

[Edward Campbell]

"Zero tolerance" is, most often a negative leadership practice ... it is better to set a positive example of the sorts of attitudes, conduct and performance one expects from subordinates. It, leading by example, is also a helluva lot harder, which may explain why we have so much "zero tolerance" these days.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I don't think Grimaldus is too far off the map.  The young today are all about social media and posting crap on the internet to get their 15 seconds of fame.  It was only a matter of time for the two friends who told two friends and so on to let this cat out of the bag.  Despite our distaste of their behavior, there will be some who applaud or accept it.  Wrong or right.  I remember being young, and not always thinking things through properly.  Discipline or training be damned.

 

[Old Sweat]

For some reason groups of young men tend to record stupid things and then pass them around. Remember the 1 Commando hazing ritual video that contributed to the end of the Airborne Regiment, and that is only one example. It only differs in detail because there was not a social media to post it on at the time. Heck, I have got a black and white snapshot of the living in subbies in 1 RCHA standing around an Austin 850 adorned with the regimental silver in the ante room of the Brownfield Mess circa 1962, and I am sure there are even older examples of stupid behaviour out there somewhere. (The CO noticed the tire marks disappearing under the rug, but decided to not ask.)

Where it gets bad is when illegality and/or depravity trumps stupidity, as is the case with the Marines.

 

[armyvern]

Stuff like this will and does happen, and blaming poor leadership for it can be far from correct.
Even if leadership has shown zero tolerance for these type of things they still may occur. Failure to express expected behavior would be a lack of leadership.
A lack of leadership also occurs when these incidents occur and they fail to act on them, instead turning a blind eye to them hoping it will go away.

Your post reminds me of my mantra:

Honest mistakes will always be made by personnel as they learn to take risks and grow in their careers and I can forgive that. Personnel who willfully and with intent disobey orders and regulations are to be dealt with immediately and fully.

These guys knew the rules, and "chose" to disobey them. Leadership will now take over on the disciplinary front as it should be. Professional soldiers are trained on the LOAC and the Geneva Conventions; they know this shit is wrong. I just wish that some people would cease and desist making excuses for their unlawful behaviour. Young, fame, whatever --- it's moot as these guys (are adults!!) were trained professionals and knew this was wrong, but chose to do it anyway. Wrong choice.

 

[jollyjacktar]

No-one here that I have seen is making excuses, that is to say condoning, their behavior.  They are, myself included, stating that crap like this happens, has happened before and probably will again.  More like accepting that shitbirds will act this way despite the guidance available from their collective CoC and training they'll receive in their careers.  However how much you wish to gnash your teeth AV, from time to time crap like this will come to surface.  And it will be dealt with when it does, as is now.  You cannot predict stupid, except to predict it exists in past, present and future.  We will see this type of idiotic behavior again, mark my words.

There are other view points as well that I know you won't agree with, but there they are.  Shared with the usual caveats, full story at link.

'Shut your mouth... war is hell': Ex-Army state politician attacks 'self-righteous' critics of Marines caught urinating over Afghan bodies on video, By Daniel Bates, Lee Moran, Hugo Gye and Mark Duell

A politician who served in the U.S. Army for two decades today slammed those from outside the military who have criticised the four Marines seen in a video urinating on dead Afghan bodies.  Florida Rep. Allen West, an ex-Army lieutenant colonel, insisted the Marines were wrong but fumed: ‘As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085872/Urination-video-4-US-Marines-charged-hours.html#ixzz1jYyHIBwk

 

[OldSolduer]

"Zero tolerance" is, most often a negative leadership practice ... it is better to set a positive example of the sorts of attitudes, conduct and performance one expects from subordinates. It, leading by example, is also a helluva lot harder, which may explain why we have so much "zero tolerance" these days.

We tend to rely on such things as zero tolerance and blanket policies to punish all instead of holding people accountable for their actions......

 

[daftandbarmy]

'Shut your mouth... war is hell': Ex-Army state politician attacks 'self-righteous' critics of Marines caught urinating over Afghan bodies on video, By Daniel Bates, Lee Moran, Hugo Gye and Mark Duell

A politician who served in the U.S. Army for two decades today slammed those from outside the military who have criticised the four Marines seen in a video urinating on dead Afghan bodies.  Florida Rep. Allen West, an ex-Army lieutenant colonel, insisted the Marines were wrong but fumed: ‘As for everyone else, unless you have been shot at by the Taliban, shut your mouth, war is hell.’

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2085872/Urination-video-4-US-Marines-charged-hours.html#ixzz1jYyHIBwk

Hmmm... he sounds like he's been studying under Col. Jessup: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j2F4VcBmeo