Marine Corps probe video showing troops "urinating on dead Taliban"

[Jed]

Of course it doesn't mean you have to piss on the dead wolves, or scalp the slain foe, or cut off the ears etc. I'm just saying that to be proficient at thumping the beejesus out of the Enemy that one of the most oft used methods of any fighting force is to dehumanize the opponent. War is not a sporting match. A failure to win does not just mean you won't let the home town down because you didn't bring home the bling. Failure means your way of life and that of all your kin and people you know has the potential to be lost or irrevocably altered for the worse.

Dehumanizing or adjusting your feelings, lowering your compassion, is a common method of living with the sh!t that comes to the surface when you have a tough job to do; especially if the tough job is not well appreciated by John Q Public.

 

[armyvern]

...

Failure means your way of life and that of all your kin and people you know has the potential to be lost or irrevocably altered for the worse.

Dehumanizing or adjusting your feelings, lowering your compassion, is a common method of living with the sh!t that comes to the surface when you have a tough job to do; especially if the tough job is not well appreciated by John Q Public.

Yes; and, failure to adhere to humane standards IAW the laws we professionals are subjected to while conducting ourselves on that battlefield also has the potential to irrevocably alter both the national perception of that mission and cause John Q public to lessen in his support both of soldiers themselves, and in their support of such just causes --- quite possibly affecting whether an outcome is victorious or not. Witness our own Canadian history for an example of such an outcome ...

 

[aesop081]

War is not a sporting match.

It's not a free-for-all either.

If it were, we could bomb anything just to kill one bad guy. Sure would simplify an air war.........

 

[The Bread Guy]

Dehumanizing or adjusting your feelings, lowering your compassion, is a common method of living with the sh!t that comes to the surface when you have a tough job to do; especially if the tough job is not well appreciated by John Q Public.

I certainly appreciate the difficult work carried out by CF members on behalf of Canadians every day.  I can only imagine at the level of stress and hardship those fighting the fight experience (which is part of the reason I appreciate the difficult work being done).

That said, organized military forces in democracies are there to administer measured, within-the-rules violence, then stop when it's not needed anymore.  It can be hard, given what folks have seen and experienced, but when the violence stops, the final battle drill is NOT humiliation or desecration.

 

[Jed]

Roger that, AV. I just hope that all that dehumanizing of the EN and the high professional standard that we must hold our troops and ourselves up to, does not cause us to dehumanize our own wayward troops when sh!t happens.

 

[dogger1936]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AWM_072837.jpg

 

[armyvern]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AWM_072837.jpg

I believe we've advanced somewhat past this in the past 65+ years. What is the point you are attempting to make?

Suggest you refer to the Geneva Convention quoted below in this thread that is dated 1949; this pic was taken in 1944.

 

[dogger1936]

Really has battle changed? Please enlighten me.

 

[armyvern]

Really has battle changed? Please enlighten me.

Ephipany for you: The rules of law and the LOAC certainly have. See my previous post. 

 

[aesop081]

Really has battle changed? Please enlighten me.

It has and so has the society that carries it out.

 

[dogger1936]

As for your post referring to reading your post below...I am seeking help for my OSI. Some people had to go kill people and do the horrible things. We all choose our profession; and I'm living with the effect of mine.

A rude post like that again shows just how disconnected people like you are from the reality of the battlefield.

 

[dogger1936]

It has and so has the society that carries it out.

Society has for sure. Where is society when the bullets start flying? How far away from society were these young men for a year? How many starbucks you think they enjoyed down at the boardwalk?

 

[dogger1936]

Having said all that urinating and video taping an act like this is dumb; 100%. Shit happens and battle can change good people.
It irritates me to no end to see the armchair persecution. Dark humour can get you through some horrible days.  Fuck knows I've laughed at some things that in retrospect was gross. Position of Taliban bodies that appeared to be in a disco dance as they lay dead on the ground became one of the funniest things to me that day. We called him disco stu. In retrospect it wasn't that funny.

Thats dark humour.

Unfortunately this group took it too far and will pay the price decided by their brass.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Having said all that urinating and video taping an act like this is dumb; 100%. crap happens and battle can change good people.
It irritates me to no end to see the armchair persecution. Dark humour can get you through some horrible days.  frig knows I've laughed at some things that in retrospect was gross. Position of Taliban bodies that appeared to be in a disco dance as they lay dead on the ground became one of the funniest things to me that day. We called him disco stu. In retrospect it wasn't that funny.

Thats dark humour.

Unfortunately this group took it too far and will pay the price decided by their brass.

Dogger- there is nothing abnormal about finding things like that funny.  The situation you were in was, by definition, abnormal.  Try not to be too hard on yourself.

 

[dapaterson]

I'll echo what SeaKingTacco said.  Laughter is an ordinary human reaction to unusual or unexpected circumstances - not just to "funny".

Leadership doesn't end on the objective - it continues well beyond in supporting and helping work through what happened and carry on.

You're working through what you've lived through.  Hopefully, those who were with you and those in your chain of command are helping you do that.


As for the airchair persecution: I think the anger from some comes from the knowledge that we can be and usually are better than this.  It's anger at the act (and the failure of leadership behind it).  It's anger at how it portrays the institution of the military in the public eye.  To quite some long-haired dude who wandered around the desert without a real job, "Hate the sin.  Love the sinner."  I think that message has been lost in this thread.  I do hope that the pers involved in this video are given access to support resources to help them work through what happened to them.

 

[OldSolduer]

It has and so has the society that carries it out.

The battle has changed. From the mass formations of WWI where the boys went "over the top" often to be blown to bits, machine gunned or caught on the wire to mechanization, lowering of deaths due to advances in medicine among other things.

During the past 60 years, we've become a gentler societywith different ideas on waging war than our fathers and grandfathers had. A former member of the First Special Service Force (the Devils Brigade WW2 fame) could not understand why we had the ramp ceremonies for our fallen from Afghanistan. He told me that if they'd done that during WW2 no fighting would have been done.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Yet another comment from the bad guys (links to full text elsewhere at Army.ca).....

.... Islamic Emirate condemns this inhumane, barbaric and cowardly act with the strongest of words and calls on the United Nations Human Right Council, other such organizations and the conscience and freedom loving people of the world to raise their voices for handing out the severest of penalty to the perpetrators of this barbaric act. But if they keep silent once again on this painful matter then it will become clear that they only serve as an organ of colonialism and don’t work for human rights because if this act (may God forbid) was to be carried out by Mujahideen of Islamic Emirate then how much fervor of the media and Human Right organizations, the repeated condemnation of the security council and investigations by the world governments and parliaments would we have seen? ....

Really?  "Pot, this is kettle, over"

 

[vonGarvin]

if this act (may God forbid) was to be carried out by Mujahideen of Islamic Emirate then how much fervor of the media and Human Right organizations, the repeated condemnation of the security council and investigations by the world governments and parliaments would we have seen?

I suppose that 4,782 articles isn't enough of a fervor (sic)?

 

[The Bread Guy]

I suppose that 4,782 articles isn't enough of a fervor (sic)?

NEVER enough for the Taliban Info-machine....

 

[daftandbarmy]

What we have here is a failure to communicate....

Afghanistan’s Soldiers Step Up Killings of Allied Forces

There have been no reported instances of Americans’ killing Afghan soldiers, although a rogue group of United States soldiers killed three Afghan civilians for sport in 2010. Yet there is ample evidence of American disregard for Afghans. After the urination video circulated, a number of those who had served in Afghanistan took to Facebook and other Web sites to cheer on their compatriots, describing Afghans of all stripes in harsh terms.

Many messages were posted on public forums, others in private message strings. One private exchange was provided to The Times by a participant in the conversation; the names of those posting matched those on record as having served in the Marine Corps. In that conversation, a former Marine said he thought the video was “pretty awesome.” Another said he hoped it would happen more often.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/20/world/asia/afghan-soldiers-step-up-killings-of-allied-forces.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha2