Link to a vid of looting at a walmart

[bossi]

... Fair enough?  

Fair enough.  From time to time we're inundated with posts such as "... I heard from a friend who knows somebody who thinks they heard ...".
Thus, the aim is to shut down such speculative innuendo swiftly, in order to avoid misinformation.

In summary, the instances of looitng in Canada are negligible, and generator thefts during the Ice Storm were not endemic (keeping in mind how many thousands of citizens were involved) - the specific matter of isolated Bell Canada generators being relocated was the exception to the rule (in the big picture) and must not be misconstrued as the norm.

Accordingly, the posts by 2332piper and Northern Touch both were inaccurate and misleading, and have been rebutted in order to set the record straight.
I'm not willing to waste time doing somebody else's homework for them, but ... I couldn't even find the words "looting" or "theft" in the following references:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/kits/storm.htm

http://www.msc-smc.ec.gc.ca/media/icestorm98/index_e.cfm

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDD-1-70-258/disasters_tragedies/ice_storm/

http://www.msp.gouv.qc.ca/secivile/dossiers/verglas/nicolet/section1_en.htm

 

[mdh]

Just a footnote:

There is only one instance of serious looting I can recall in Toronto (in its recent history) - which was in 1992 when riots broke out leading to a rampage around the Bay and Bloor areas (still nothing on the scale of New Orleans).   IIRC this was a response to the acquittal of the LA police officers accused of beating Rodney King. This in turn led the provincial NDP government (under Premier Bob Rae) to appoint Stephen Lewis as head of a commission to examine the state of race relations in Ontario which reported in the summer of 1992.

cheers, mdh

 

[FastEddy]

As for Op RECUPERATION (the Ice Storm):   Where and with what unit were you deployed?
2 CMBG?   31, 32 or 33 CBG?   Oh, wait - I forgot - you're just a cadet ...

In other words, looting is more than extremely rare in Canadian society - it verges on being non-existent, even under the most dire circumstances.   This is a fact documented in civilian Emergency Management literature and training.

I guess the Riot in Montreal Mar. 17th 1955 doesn't count for anything ?.

P.S. I haven't come across your reply to 'Redleafjumper's, "you're just a cadet", or possibly you feel its not worth addressing ?.

 

[matty101]

i think Canadians generaly have more of a spectator position when it comes to natural and man made disasters.  Yes we've had some but really, has anything like this ever happened in Canada in recent history?  we like to think that we're above all this looting and whatever.  I would agree that our country, on the whole, is one that thinks before it acts but we're humans none the less and we're capable of anything that the people in new orleans are.  who knows what the circumstances were for those two cops in the store.  what if the were finding proper shoes for their kids and food for neighbors?  or maybe they were just plain stealing (in uniform is a little foolish) but still all i say is maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge.  It reminds me of 14 year olds arguing over the internet about which special forces group is better. whats your frame of reference? we all imagine our selves as heroes in adverse situations and condemning all others for not being the same.  the news is notorious for showing the worst side of a story ( the way the CBC depicts the Canadian army).  keep an open mind.
))

 

[Old Ranger]

Why would you loot a store in uniform????

What if it wasn't your uniform?

 

[RyanNS]

On a more positive note...Many of the people I have met in the Southern U.S. have been some of the nicest and kind people I have met anywhere. Driving in rural Texas (halfway between Houston and Brownsville) I decided to change my oil on the side of the road. I punctured the oil filter and drained the oil. Then I realized that an oil filter covered in old oil isn't the easiest thing to grip and take off  : The first truck that drove by I flagged down and asked for assistance. The guy driving the truck took me a few miles out his way to a fellows house who happened to be a backyard mechanic and had a homemade oil filter wrench. The mechanic loaned it to me and the guy who picked me up drove me back to my vehicle and waited to make sure I was able to remove the filter and safely get on the way. My original story (to cover my own stupidity) was that a rock"must have flew up and punctured my oil filter" haha.

 

[FastEddy]

What if it wasn't your uniform?

My answer is "NO", but I see your point, that could be very likely.

 

[FastEddy]

On a more positive note...Many of the people I have met in the Southern U.S. have been some of the nicest and kind people I have met anywhere. Driving in rural Texas (halfway between Houston and Brownsville) I decided to change my oil on the side of the road. I punctured the oil filter and drained the oil. Then I realized that an oil filter covered in old oil isn't the easiest thing to grip and take off   : The first truck that drove by I flagged down and asked for assistance. The guy driving the truck took me a few miles out his way to a fellows house who happened to be a backyard mechanic and had a homemade oil filter wrench. The mechanic loaned it to me and the guy who picked me up drove me back to my vehicle and waited to make sure I was able to remove the filter and safely get on the way. My original story (to cover my own stupidity) was that a rock"must have flew up and punctured my oil filter" haha.

Nobody is suggesting the population of the South is nothing but fine upstanding citizenry.

However your tale of "Road side Oil Changing" does raise a few intresting questions.

1.What prompted you to change your oil then and there? (in the middle of no where).

2.Why didn't you use the drain plug. (did you have a sufficient container to receive the old oil or as it seems you just let it drain on the bare roadside from puncturing the Oil Filter?.

3.If you had a screwdriver & hammer you could have punctured the oil filter just off center and completely through to the other side and used it as a "T" wrench and if still stuburn, tap the screwdriver handle with the hammer!.(again, suggesting you had drained the oil by the drain plug)

Not knowing the actual location of this incident, so suggesting you had pulled up outside or near anybody's house and proceeded to change your oil you might have got a different sort of hospitality.

 

[bossi]

... I guess the Riot in Montreal Mar. 17th 1955 doesn't count for anything ? ...

Okay, FastEddy - follow the bouncing ball - let me know if you can't keep up, and I'll slow down to your pace:

... In other words, looting is more than extremely rare in Canadian society - it verges on being non-existent, even under the most dire circumstances.  This is a fact documented in civilian Emergency Management literature and training.

So, to clarify:  I'm not talking about "recreational looting" (i.e. such as happens after a sports victory or loss, when a criminal element takes advantage of the throng to mask their actions, but rather about looting out of desperation after "disasters" (i.e. "... dire circumstances ...")

Next, I'll do the math for you:  This is the year 2005.  2005 - 1955 = 50 (years ago)

Now, as to the meaning of what I wrote, since you also apparently had difficulty understanding "rare" and "verges" ...

rare 
A adjective
1  rare
-- not widely distributed; "rare herbs"; "rare patches of gree in the desert" 
 
2  rare
-- not widely known; especially valued for its uncommonness; "a rare word"; "rare books" 
 
3  rare
-- (of meat) cooked a short time; still red inside; "rare roast beef"  {Hmmmm ... naw - that would be like shooting fish in a barrel - I'll resist the temptation ...}
 
4  rare
-- recurring only at long intervals; "a rare appearance"; "total eclipses are rare events"  
 
5  rare, uncommon
-- marked by an uncommon quality; especially superlative or extreme of its kind; "what is so rare as a day in June"-J.R.Lowell; "a rare skill"; "an uncommon sense of humor"; "she was kind to an uncommon degree" 
 
6  rare, rarefied, rarified
-- having low density; "rare gasses"; "lightheaded from the rarefied mountain air" 

... and ...

verge
verb
1  verge
-- border on; come close to; "His behavior verges on the criminal" 

P.S. I haven't come across your reply to 'Redleafjumper's, "you're just a cadet", or possibly you feel its not worth addressing ?.

Okay, FastEddy - still with us?  Come on now, do your best to keep up ... even if you can't ...

... Fair enough?

Fair enough.

 

[FastEddy]

"""

i think Canadians generaly have more of a spectator position when it comes to natural and man made disasters.   Yes we've had some but really, has anything like this ever happened in Canada in recent history?   we like to think that we're above all this looting and whatever.   I would agree that our country, on the whole, is one that thinks before it acts but we're humans none the less and we're capable of anything that the people in new orleans are.   who knows what the circumstances were for those two cops in the store.   what if the were finding proper shoes for their kids and food for neighbors?   or maybe they were just plain stealing (in uniform is a little foolish) but still all i say is maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge.   It reminds me of 14 year olds arguing over the internet about which special forces group is better. whats your frame of reference? we all imagine our selves as heroes in adverse situations and condemning all others for not being the same.   the news is notorious for showing the worst side of a story ( the way the CBC depicts the Canadian army).   keep an open mind."""

There are no mitigating circumstances during the commission of a crime or the apprehension of anyone during that commission. (that means, if your caught holding up a 7-11 because you have no money and your wife and kids are starving, your still going to be arrested.)

If a defendant is found guilty of that crime, Defence Counsels may offer any such mitigation in and for Sententing hearings or pleas.
(that means, maybe if your Lawyer puts the how's and whys to the court, you might get a reduced punishment.)

A good rule of thumb, till proven wrong, if it Looks like a duck swims like a duck, if it waddles like duck, if quacks like a duck its a safe bet its a duck.

I've got no love for the Media, but lets stop blaming them for everything that goes wrong or brought to our attention.

 

[FastEddy]

Okay, FastEddy - follow the bouncing ball - let me know if you can't keep up, and I'll slow down to your pace:

I glad that you can draw a distinct line between Okay Rioting and Looting and Not Okay Rioting and Looting.As for dire circumstances, I guess the young men in the Video wheeling out Electric Toy Cars and Bicycles were in extrem dire circumstances.

I do not think the Insurance Companies or LEA's share your views on Rioting or Looting, regardless of the circumstances that cause them.

As for the "Fair Enough" I think you greatly misconstrued his meaning. Of course I can understand your back peddling on the Cadet incident. Boy you really stepped into it there.

As for your attempt at humor or sarcasms at my expense, I would have thought a Member of the Directing Staff would have been above that.

 

[bossi]

... I do not think the Insurance Companies or LEA's share your views on Rioting or Looting, regardless of the circumstances that cause them. ...

(sigh) ... Okay, Sparky - bless you for trying your best, but ... let's try this again ...

... In other words, looting is more than extremely rare in Canadian society - it verges on being non-existent, even under the most dire circumstances.  This is a fact documented in civilian Emergency Management literature and training.

Looting is not synonomous with rioting.  I said "looting", not "rioting".  You introduced rioting to this discussion on looting.  It wasn't my little voice you heard say "rioting" ... Take notes if you have to, okay?

... I do not think the Insurance Companies or LEA's share your views on Rioting or Looting, regardless of the circumstances that cause them. ...

... In other words, looting is more than extremely rare in Canadian society - it verges on being non-existent, even under the most dire circumstances.  This is a fact documented in civilian Emergency Management literature and training.

I'm guessing you weren't in the top third of your class ...
And, thankfully, our justice system has a diffent view from the LEAs in your particular universe ...
Step away from the pencil crayons, and look up "Defence of Necessity".
Okay, I know this is difficult for you - just nod your head up and down, and it'll eventually all make sense ...

... As for your attempt at humor or sarcasms at my expense, I would have thought a Member of the Directing Staff would have been above that.

Nope.  You really stepped in it.

 

[bossi]

FastEddy:  please stop posting incorrect/false information such as "... There are no mitigating circumstances during the commission of a crime ...".  You are embarrassing yourself by implying otherwise.

In fact, even though a suspect might be arrested and charged for commission of an alleged offence, certain mitigating circumstances can result in the charges being dropped, quashed, or a finding of not guilty.

Necessity
-  Can arise as a result of an excuse.  In other words, it comes about where, due to the circumstances, the accused was not morally wrong.
-  ie:  Perka:  plaintiffs boat had marjuana.  They had to leave international waters to land in Canada due to a storm.
-  The defence of necessity is a common law defence which can be used because section 8(3) allows common law defences.
-  mere negligence or the fact the accused was taking part in a criminal activity when
necessity arose will not negate the defence (Perka)
-  To rely on the defence of necessity (Perka):
1)  there must be an urgent situation of imminent danger where compliance with
the law is demonstrably impossible.
2)  There must be imminent peril.
3)  Proportionality:  The harm you are trying to avoid must be greater than the
harm you commit.

And, did you want your post to differentiate between what matty101 said and your comments, sorta like this?

i think Canadians generaly have more of a spectator position when it comes to natural and man made disasters.  Yes we've had some but really, has anything like this ever happened in Canada in recent history?  we like to think that we're above all this looting and whatever.  I would agree that our country, on the whole, is one that thinks before it acts but we're humans none the less and we're capable of anything that the people in new orleans are.  who knows what the circumstances were for those two cops in the store.  what if the were finding proper shoes for their kids and food for neighbors?  or maybe they were just plain stealing (in uniform is a little foolish) but still all i say is maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge.  It reminds me of 14 year olds arguing over the internet about which special forces group is better. whats your frame of reference? we all imagine our selves as heroes in adverse situations and condemning all others for not being the same.  the news is notorious for showing the worst side of a story ( the way the CBC depicts the Canadian army).  keep an open mind."""

There are no mitigating circumstances during the commission of a crime or the apprehension of anyone during that commission. (that means, if your caught holding up a 7-11 because you have no money and your wife and kids are starving, your still going to be arrested.)

If a defendant is found guilty of that crime, Defence Counsels may offer any such mitigation in and for Sententing hearings or pleas.
(that means, maybe if your Lawyer puts the how's and whys to the court, you might get a reduced punishment.)

A good rule of thumb, till proven wrong, if it Looks like a duck swims like a duck, if it waddles like duck, if quacks like a duck its a safe bet its a duck.

I've got no love for the Media, but lets stop blaming them for everything that goes wrong or brought to our attention.

 

[DFW2T]

I read all the comments but I never heard anything about OUR Ambassador (of a sort) to the US,  Celine Diones' comments on global TV.  WTF.  Did anybody hear/see that load of crap.

  Might just be me (cause I can't stand her anyways) but I think she should renounce her Canadian citizenship.

 

[S McKee]

I'm a big Michael Coren fan here's his take on Celion

Michael CorenSat, September 10, 2005

    Celine hits a low note

By MICHAEL COREN

   

 
The first question must be why Celine Dion was on Larry King Live at all. Presumably, Larry's team of producers did not sit around all day discussing who would be the most astute commentator on the New Orleans disaster, settling not on a state governor or a Nobel laureate engineer but on a singer from Quebec.

Perhaps the initiative came from Celine's people. Which raises the question of why on earth the lady who gave us show tunes from the sinking of the Titanic really thought that we wanted to hear her opinions of the search and rescue policies of the United States government.

That she cried and shouted and became so visibly upset during her appearance last week was embarrassing to some, energizing to others. But what it really came down to is best described as the Oprah Syndrome.

Celine Dion is not in any way a bad woman, but she apparently believes that as a celebrity she has an automatic right, even a duty, to express her feelings about a public tragedy.

I feel something and I am famous; thus it has to be important. Just as a movie star's baby is treated as if it's the fist baby ever born, a singer's romance the first and greatest romance ever, a fashion model's struggle with disease the first and most difficult struggle with disease.

Just to make sure that we knew we were dealing with genuine goodness here, Celine then told us that she had given $1million to the cause but that, naturally, this wasn't in the least bit important. Then why make this act of altruism known?

The same reason that she told us she broke down in tears because, in her words, she "opened my television and there were still people in there."

(The fate of people apparently trapped inside Celine Dion's television is neither here nor there, but public weeping most certainly is.)

And nobody does an Oprah moment better than, well Oprah.

Hardly had Celine taken a breath than Oprah Winfrey, Sean Penn and their friends were posing for the cameras as they hugged people in New Orleans.

No mention of the fact that the assembled bodyguards and television crews actually disrupted the rescue operation.

As for Celine, she was particularly unwise to criticize the Bush government's failure to master logistics and deliver aid to New Orleans earlier that it did.

After all, she was the only person at the Live 8 concert in Ontario who was not there in person.

Her people apparently could not master the logistics of flying her from Las Vegas. At the end of her performance for caring Larry and the caring Larry watchers, she sang. Perfectly. The tears stopped and the voice took over. Too planned, too contrived, too Celine and Larry. Too awful.

The best people I have known have done their crying in private and perform their acts of charity behind the scenes -- often in complete anonymity. Nor do they sing for the suffering when, frankly, singing is not really what is required.

As a culture we have come to revere feelings rather than thought.

We weep for people we see on television whom we have never met, but cannot name the person who lives three doors away and have no idea of their pain, needs and fears.

It's the same sensibilities behind the mass pilgrimages to spots where people have been murdered, as if this gives us a sense of meaning and inclusion. We vicariously feel the flame of fame.

The recent scenes of entire crowds of people weeping on the anniversary of the death of Princess Diana say it all, really.

One almost expected Celine Dion to step forward and sing a ballad in the woman's memory.

Not cynical but realistic. We're drinking neurosis from buckets offered by pop singers and television hosts. It's absurdity with a French accent.

 

[RyanNS]

Nobody is suggesting the population of the South is nothing but fine upstanding citizenry.

However your tale of "Road side Oil Changing" does raise a few intresting questions.

1.What prompted you to change your oil then and there? (in the middle of no where).

2.Why didn't you use the drain plug. (did you have a sufficient container to receive the old oil or as it seems you just let it drain on the bare roadside from puncturing the Oil Filter?.

3.If you had a screwdriver & hammer you could have punctured the oil filter just off center and completely through to the other side and used it as a "T" wrench and if still stuburn, tap the screwdriver handle with the hammer!.(again, suggesting you had drained the oil by the drain plug)


Not knowing the actual location of this incident, so suggesting you had pulled up outside or near anybody's house and proceeded to change your oil you might have got a different sort of hospitality.

1. I had just driven over 5000 km's and had another few thousand km's ahead of me. I was also travelling pretty cheap so I couldn't afford to pay a garage to do it for me.

2. I did use the drainplug as well. When taking the oil filter off though you're supposed to puncture it and let the oil inside the filter drain too. Yes I had water jugs that I put the old oil in. Dropped them off at a garage in Harlingen, TX.

3. Again, tried that. With such a small engine and not much area to work there was no room to get the screwdriver all the way through.

The location was ideal for what I had to do. Think very sparsely populated, flat farmland, on the side of one of
rural Texas's long empty FM roads off the highways. Much more preferable then somwhere in Houston.

 

[redleafjumper]

About looting in Canada, I recall several times that the Kelowna regatta sparked riots and looting.  On one occasion I spent a day in a drill hall practicing riot control drill in case there was an aid-to-the-civil-power request made (didn't happen).

A lot of what has been said about Canada and Canadians not being of the looting sort is a tad arrogant, as if Canadians are somehow better than other folks and wouldn't lower themselves to that level.  The propensity to loot probably depends on a number of factors, here are a few that I can think of off the top of my head:

                    a.  A breakdown in the ability of law and order to prevent looting.
                    b.  The desire or plans of individuals in an affected area to engage in lawless activities including looting.
                        These persons see a major catastrophe as an opportunity to improve their own situation by staying behind when others   
                          flee an affected area.
                    c.  Need to find the necessities of life for self and those in a small group when the ability of the usual infrastructure to
                          provide necessities breaks down.
                    d.  There is opportunity to loot with little risk of consequence.
                    e.  There is an opportunity to loot as part of a social disturbance, such as a protest, riot, or sporting event.
                    f.    Large numbers of poor or otherwise disaffected persons who have little buy-in to the social infrastructure.

I would argue that while there have been isolated examples of looting in Canada in the past hundred years, as Bossi argues it has been pretty rare.  It hasn't been rare because Canadians are somehow better than Americans, looting has been a rare circumstance merely because there has not been a breakdown in law and order sufficient to allow looting to become widespread.  Even in such events as sports riots or the historical annual Kelowna Regatta riots, these were short-term events that provided a localized opportunity for looting in a very small area.  This is substantially different from the circumstance that we have been seeing in New Orleans, where there was a complete breakdown in all of the infrastructure.  It seems to me, and I welcome other views on this point, that the icestorm damage, as devastating as it was to infrastructure, did not result in a widespread breakdown in law and order.  Canadians simply have not yet been faced with circumstances in which the lawful authority no longer has any ability to provide necessities and law enforcement.  Weather probably plays a role as well.  The first priority when it is cold is not to steal flat screen televisions, it is usually to secure sources of shelter, heat and warmth whether these be generators, firewood, sleeping bags, or just good clothing. 

In my opinion, we very well could see a natural disaster cause serious problems, including looting, in a major Canadian city.  My bet would be a major earthquake on the west coast with substantial damage to transportation infrastructure.  That situation would be a serious problem for law and order and a major challenge for our self-image.

 

[FastEddy]

1. I had just driven over 5000 km's and had another few thousand km's ahead of me. I was also travelling pretty cheap so I couldn't afford to pay a garage to do it for me.

2. I did use the drainplug as well. When taking the oil filter off though you're supposed to puncture it and let the oil inside the filter drain too. Yes I had water jugs that I put the old oil in. Dropped them off at a garage in Harlingen, TX.

3. Again, tried that. With such a small engine and not much area to work there was no room to get the screwdriver all the way through.

The location was ideal for what I had to do. Think very sparsely populated, flat farmland, on the side of one of
rural Texas's long empty FM roads off the highways. Much more preferable then somwhere in Houston.

Thanks RyanNS, sorry if I sounded too critical, just curious. You go to the Head of the Class, well done. all the right SOP's.

Cheers.

 

[bossi]

... A lot of what has been said about Canada and Canadians not being of the looting sort is a tad arrogant, as if Canadians are somehow better than other folks and wouldn't lower themselves to that level.   ...

This is an example of one weakness of e-dicsussions:  The lack of tone, plus the delay between point, and counter-point ...

In this example, nowhere did I (or several others) presume to suggest any moral superiority - it was simply stated, matter-of-factly, that looting in Canada is rare.  There was no discussion of the underlying factors, until now (and kudo's to Redleafjumper for a thorough analysis).  I'd lean towards emphasis on a couple of points, which can simply be summarised as "social" or "cultural" (not necessarily unique to Canada, but pertaining to specific facets of society or culture).

... The propensity to loot probably depends on a number of factor ...

b.  The desire or plans of individuals in an affected area to engage in lawless activities including looting.  -- [social, cultural]

c.  Need to find the necessities of life for self and those in a small group when the ability of the usual infrastructure to  provide necessities breaks down. -- [Maslow's Hierarchy of Need]

e.  There is an opportunity to loot as part of a social disturbance, such as a protest, riot, or sporting event. -- [hence the reference to "recreational looting" ...]

f.    Large numbers of poor or otherwise disaffected persons who have little buy-in to the social infrastructure. -- [it is a fact that the UN identified Canada as one of the top countries in the world, implicit in which was the factor that we ENJOY a higher standard of living than many other countries ...]

I would argue that while there have been isolated examples of looting in Canada in the past hundred years, as Bossi argues it has been pretty rare.  It hasn't been rare because Canadians are somehow better than Americans, looting has been a rare circumstance merely because there has not been a breakdown in law and order sufficient to allow looting to become widespread.  Even in such events as sports riots or the historical annual Kelowna Regatta riots, these were short-term events that provided a localized opportunity for looting in a very small area.  This is substantially different from the circumstance that we have been seeing in New Orleans, where there was a complete breakdown in all of the infrastructure.  It seems to me, and I welcome other views on this point, that the icestorm damage, as devastating as it was to infrastructure, did not result in a widespread breakdown in law and order.  Canadians simply have not yet been faced with circumstances in which the lawful authority no longer has any ability to provide necessities and law enforcement.  Weather probably plays a role as well.  The first priority when it is cold is not to steal flat screen televisions, it is usually to secure sources of shelter, heat and warmth whether these be generators, firewood, sleeping bags, or just good clothing.  ...

Yes, yes, yes, and "sorta" ... while I can't disagree with the fact that there hasn't really been an example of a breakdown in Canadian law and order (on a large scale), I'm still going to lean towards conventional teachings which point to other factors - need, primarily (e.g. during the Ice Storm, while people may have become hungry ... it wasn't to the extreme of famine of fatal starvation ... again, linked back to a higher standard of life, groceries on most shelves, and the altruistic behaviour of that grocery company which gave away food for free - in the latter case, an example of swift and decisive relief efforts - something more difficult to achieve in New Orleans due to flooding, whereas roads were still open during the Ice Storm ...)

And, again reinforcing what Redleafjumper was saying, most examples of disasters in Canada have been in neighbourhoods which simply happened to have a higher standard of living - it's not a damning accusation that American slums are worse than Canada - it's simply that most Canadian disasters have happened in different socio-economic neighbourhoods ... thus one has to factor in arguments such as "apples and oranges", or "crocodiles and beavers" ...

 

[RyanNS]

Thanks RyanNS, sorry if I sounded too critical, just curious. You go to the Head of the Class, well done. all the right SOP's.

Cheers.

No problem  I guess what I originally wrote did seem kind of sketchy hehe.