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Light Support Weapons & Infantry Automatic Rifles

IAR is actually a very interesting concept -- however I'm disappointed they dropped the quick change barrel.

The M110 Sniper rifle is a 7.62x51mm NATO semi auto rifle -- less a contender to the C-14 TWolf or McMillan Tac50, but a suplement - and much more suited for some operations.

 
Well, you have to consider who the audience is.  What is common dog for most of us here is usually new and cutting edge for the uninformed...

 
I was just wondering if this would be a good DMR for our snipers.  The reason that I say this is because it has a heavy barrel so the added weight would dampen the muzzle jump and keeps the barrel cooler.  It also is open bolt for full automatic fire.  I would say that this is a good idea because if the snipers found themselves in a situation where they needed full automatic fire (besides the C9 gunner with them or if they didn't have a C9 gunner), they can have it (to a "better than nothing" degree I know) and there would be less cool down time for the breach and chamber so the powder would burn better and the shot would be more accurate each time.

I am asking the snipers (Former and current) out there if the LWRC IAR would be a good candidate in place of the C7CT or the AR-10T.
 
Hk21  ;)

I would never sacrifice a belt fed for a box mag gun.

I would also go Hk417 for a DM gun, I dont see a need for an open bolt mag fed gun...
 
The Ultimate Battle Rifle
September 24, 2008 Tactical Life|by Cameron Hopkins
Article Link

Belgium may be best known for fine shotguns, rich chocolate and tasty waffles, but for you and me, this quaint little country is the home of the world's finest major-caliber battle rifle, the FN-FAL. Renowned throughout the world for its rugged reliability, the FAL was manufactured in 10 countries in its heyday and issued to over 70 armies, not to mention various irregulars and mercenaries.

In fact it was the FAL's calling card as the weapon of mercs that gained it the most notoriety.

Col. "Mad" Mike Hoare, an Irish-born World War II veteran who immigrated to South Africa and went on to become one of the Dark Continent's most celebrated mercenaries, unwittingly did more to promote the legend of the FAL as the merc's gun-of-choice when he led a daring hostage rescue mission into the Belgian Congo in 1964 and freed a group of Americans and Belgians. In the days following the raid, Mad Mike's men held off the rebels long enough to evacuate over 1,800 European and American civilians.

If the FAL, the "Fusil Automatique Legere," was not famous before, it would be now.

The FAL is a .308 Win. (7.62 x 51mm) gas-operated, short-stroke piston system available in semiautomatic and automatic versions. The FAL's standard payload is a 20-round detachable box magazine; 30-round magazines were also made for a squad automatic version of the FAL, but they're not desirable due to their length and "spring issues" with the elongated box.

The FAL came in four major versions. The best known by far was the FAL 50.00 standard model. It came with a 24-inch barrel. The next most popular was the Paratrooper version, the FAL 50.63, the same basic weapon except with a folding stock and a shortened 18-inch barrel. A standard 24-inch barrel with the Para's folding stock was called the FAL 50.64. The rarest version of all was the FAL 50.41, a heavy-barreled model with a built-in bipod designed as a squad machinegun, sort of like the BAR.
More on link
 
In regards to the a replacement for a C9/M249 what are your opinions on the MG36?
From what I've seen (admittedly very little) it seems like an amazing weapons system, and other than not being made by Colt or Diemaco and us probably having to switch to the "G" series of weapons (G36A2, G36C, etc) what, if any, would be the downfall of this weapons system?
 
There is no relation between an IAR/ LAR and an LMG. Neither are interchangable as they do different jobs. AS for the LWRC IAR there is nothing revolutionary in taking a twenty year old  fire control mechanisim (first made by Ceiner in 1983 or thereabouts) and sticking it into an HK416 knock off with quality control issues.
 
IMHO a better IAR could be the Hk23 or Hk21 (if you want 7.62).  Proven system - closed bolt accuracy - and different feed options.

An LMG needs to be belt fed - full stop - the IAR does not address this - and in such you lose volume of fire, that is a necessary capability in the LMG platfrom.

 
HK 21 in action. Looks pretty handy...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFIHBAJf2NY&feature=related
 
Mark M said:
I was just wondering if this would be a good DMR for our snipers.  The reason that I say this is because it has a heavy barrel so the added weight would dampen the muzzle jump and keeps the barrel cooler.  It also is open bolt for full automatic fire.  I would say that this is a good idea because if the snipers found themselves in a situation where they needed full automatic fire (besides the C9 gunner with them or if they didn't have a C9 gunner), they can have it (to a "better than nothing" degree I know) and there would be less cool down time for the breach and chamber so the powder would burn better and the shot would be more accurate each time.

I am asking the snipers (Former and current) out there if the LWRC IAR would be a good candidate in place of the C7CT or the AR-10T.

No, our snipers are not in the Designated marksman business, the C7CTs have been handed down to the Rifle Coys, the AR10s are spotter rifles that provide the same capibilities as the C3/C3A1 did out to 600m. No matter how you slice it the IAR is still a 5.56mm platform and entirely not suitable for sniper operations.
 
The dutch C7 concept is ideal it still gives a good volume of fire but a lot easier to handle than a heavy belt feed ammo tray the drum magazine gives a better balance to the weapon I would still like to see a move from 5.56 to a 6.5 round been tried out by the American Armaments company
 
ceejay77 said:
The dutch C7 concept is ideal it still gives a good volume of fire but a lot easier to handle than a heavy belt feed ammo tray the drum magazine gives a better balance to the weapon I would still like to see a move from 5.56 to a 6.5 round been tried out by the American Armaments company

Your suggestion of changing to 6.5 was addressed here by some of our small arms SMEs.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/28664/post-838499.html#msg838499

Perhaps you would like to provide more substantiation than a "weapons development show" you watched that was probably pitched to supporting the 6.5 and putting down any other calibres in use.
 
Metalstorm seems to have refined their weapons system to the point it is now a viable accessory for a standard rifle. The light weight and high firepower makes it something to think about:



Metal Storm Reports 3GL, MAUL Testing Milestones

Metal Storm completed an endurance firing test launching 200 of its 40mm STORM40 ammunitions using its 3GL grenade launcher. Following the successful test, the company expects to begin production of the 3GL in 2010. The company has also completed design verification testing for its newly launched GLH1851 Multi-shot Accessory Underbarrel Launcher (MAUL).

The recent endurance test followed successful firing tests of the 3GL earlier in 2009. According to Metal Storm Chief Engineer David Pashen, a single weapon was used continuously throughout the test, firing Metal-Storm patented three-stacked ammunitions, demonstrating good results for the weapon and ammunition. “We used a single 3GL that was not cleaned throughout the test” he said. “The ammunition and weapon … maintained a constant velocity for 200 firings without any adverse effects.” Said Pashen. "Metal Storm could now build on the results and complete the full qualification of the ammunition." said Pashen. “Firing 200 rounds in stacks of three demonstrates that this system has reached levels of maturity and reliability that had not been previously demonstrated by the company” he said.

Loaded with the three-stack ammunition, 3GL offers a unique advantage of being the only 40mm launcher which is light and compact enough to attach as an accessory to an assault rifle, while also providing a three-shot, semi-automatic firing capability. According to Dr Lee Finniear, CEO of Metal Storm Ltd., this feature provides users a critical advantage in an opening of an engagement; "in the first few seconds a squad equipped with 3GLs can unleash three times the number of 40mm grenades on the enemy. Whether in a planned attack, or in response to an ambush by the enemy, this firepower can be the decisive element in winning the firefight and saving our soldiers lives.” Finniear said.



In April 2009 Metal Storm completed an endurance firing test launching 200 of its 40mm STORM40 ammunitions using its 3GL grenade launcher. The weapon can be used independently, or attached to an assaultrifle (below). Photos: Metal Storm


The MAUL is an ultra-light shotgun attachment that fits under the barrel of an individual combat weapon including the M-4 and M-16 rifles (as an accessory it is designated GLH1851). Traditionally soldiers have carried separate weapons to perform door-breaching and less lethal force missions. The MAUL allows both missions to be performed by a single weapon system with minimal weight overhead. This battery powered weapon was originally developed to provide door-breaching capability with standard assault weapons. However, the 12 gauge MAUL is capable of firing a range of both lethal and less-lethal munitions. Constructed from carbon fibre with a steel barrel, MAUL weighs only 1.8 pounds. Because there is no conventional mechanical action, the weapon exhibits superior performance over other 12 gauge guns and operates over a wider range of climatic conditions. The MAUL attaches to the weapon's Picatinny rail and is bore sight aligned to the host gun sighting system.

“The MAUL was conceived with a great deal of influence from the US operational community” said MSI General Manager Peter D. Faulkner, “We were consistently told that weight should be at the top of our design priorities. At 1.8 pounds, we think we have set the bar for a five shot semi-automatic shotgun.” Although the MAUL is capable of firing a range of lethal and less lethal munitions, Mr Faulkner said Metal Storm is seeing a particularly strong interest in less lethal applications from military, security and law enforcement communities. “The MAUL readily adapts to the unique aspects of urban operations with a range of traditional and specialty capabilities to include standoff door breaching and neuro-muscular incapacitation,” he said. “With the MAUL’s quick-load munition tubes an operator can instantly reconfigure his weapon to suit the mission.” The company displayed the MAUL at the Joint Services Small Arms System Symposium in Las Vegas, Nevada (May 20, 2009) as an accessory to the M4 as well as a stand-alone version with a folding shoulder stock.

The MAUL testing culminated in a series of shoulder firings at Metal Storm’s test facilities in Chantilly, Virginia USA on Friday, 24 April 2009. For the MAUL testing, the weapon was integrated onto an M4 rifle and shoulder fired using 12 gauge Blunt Impact rounds. These munitions are one of several rounds to be offered by Metal Storm for the MAUL. The weapon weighs 1.8 lbs, below the original design goal. “The MAUL is capable of firing munitions across the lethality spectrum and is attracting considerable interest within the international military and law enforcement communities." mr. Finniear said.
 
I read more into the IAR project for the USMC a couple of points
1. Interesting to note the US army will not give up the SAW. The IAr is a USMC project
2. this whole thing was conceived prior to 9/11 when the american missions were more NATO SFOR type stuff
3. After 9/11, with more intense combat, I beleive the USMC troops on the ground have a different opinion about losing SAW to get an "Over weight rifle that fires on automatic
4. Notice the brits had the same idea but the in the end they still picked up the LMG anyways. I beleive they use both the LSW and the LMG within a section.

 
Current thinking seems to be moving away from the idea of "rifles" altogether, and placing more emphasis on grenade launchers.

MILCOR type revolvers, "Metalstorm" launchers and specialized weapons like the XM-25 and the airburst module on the OCIW are all examples of this sort of thinking. To my mind, there is nothing wrong with this except for the limited number of rounds these weapons can hold, even an XM-25 holds six X 25mm rounds.

The "way to go" would seem to be smaller explosive projectiles for a man portable weapon that is light enough to hump all day yet controllable by the user when firing. 12 gage shotgun grenade shells have been designed and demonstrated that provide a reasonable "minimum" amount of firepower, and there are plenty of shotgun concepts out there that allow the shooter to carry 10 rounds in a box mag or 20 rounds in a drum mag, so putting a large amount of firepower on target isn't impossible. (The downside there is these shells generally have a range of @ 200m).

I suspect there will have to be another generation of development before grenade launchers become light, robust and effective enough to become the primary weapons for Infantry section support, and rifle development seems to have plateaued, so the obvious question is really "where do we go from here? Do we even need to replace our current family of small arms?
 
<--- inserting personal opinion here


The increase in capability of the various "new" weapons systems (ie XM-8, SCAR-L, etc) are only an INCREMENTAL increase in capability. 

I don't know off the top of my head, but let us suppose that they provide a 50% greater effectiveness.

(AHA, from globalsecurity.org: 

The XM8 will provide lethality performance comparable to the currently fielded M4 carbine rifle, while weighing 20 percent less than the M4 because of advanced technologies developed for the XM29 program. The prototype weighs 6.4 pounds, with an objective weight of 5.7 pounds. PEO claims it takes one third the time to train a Soldier on the XM8 than the current weapon system.    )

Note, it's comparable lethality, with easier training and lighter weight....hrm.

What is the cost involved in replacing the entire small arms inventory of a nation such as the US?  Is that cost worth only an incremental increase in capability?

A generational increase in capability (IE no longer a "PK", just a "K") with a decrease in weapon system weight and increase in reliability would be worth that cost.

I don't think we'll see that increase in capability without significant changes to what "small arms" consist of.

The G11 was a generational increase in capability, but too costly, and from looking at the action (I saw one in germany in a museum in Munster) you'd need to be a watch-maker to be able to service them!  As well, at the time of it's proposed introduction, the Germany's were merging....hello....economic unrest.  Sound familiar?

Then there's the other side of the coin....where you have to look at who actually does most of the killing in a war?  Is it the riflemen?  Or is it the support weapons?  The riflemen usually pin the enemy, the support weapons finish them. 

But, that could just be my mistaken interpretation of things.

Either way, I don't see any sort of national re-armament or small arms replacement project happening until we're in more of an economic up-swing.  And investing heavily in a small arms project is not going to significantly help our economic position....how many people work at Colt Canada?

NS
 
USMC has had major issues with the M-32 Revolving GL - dud rate is over 50% at SOI West
  The revolving cyclinders with short 9" barrel are not getting the Grenade up to the speed necessary for the fuze to arm.  My opinion was they should add a delrin sleeve to the cylinder to better seal -over course with that closer tolerance to seal - comes greater problems with jamming the mechanism.

My personal opinion is that you cannot carry enough 40mm LV on a person to make that type of GL a feasible system to non vehicle borne troops, and if you have a vehicle the 40mm HV can be mounted.

I think the M320 (HK) and M203 systems are about where we are at outside SMU use, until a grenade can be increased in Lethality and miniturized -- tech just ain't there yet folks.


The IAR concept is valid - but the Hk21E is the design of my choice - not a 5.56mm as you get a DM gun and a 7.62 LMG in one - its not peerfect but I dont see the other systems as a great choice.
 
"Miniturized" grenades are around, the Russians us a 30mm grenade for the AGS-17 and AGS-30; the AGS-30 is only slightly heavier than a GPMG. The Chinese use a 35mm grenade for their QLZ-87B/QLB-06 which are also similar in size/weight to a GPMG. And the US is developing 25 and 20mm rounds for future applications, and micro grenades the size of 12 gauge shotgun shells exist as well.

The 40mm grenade is a good weapon, but I would say technology has already created viable alternatives.
 
I'd say that 40 is actually a piece of shit in the current configuration.

25m (Low velocity) and others are worthless unless you get a CoM hit.
 
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