"Light Infantry/Airborne Capability" & "Canadian Airborne - a waste of $$$?"

[paracowboy]

what Kevin said.
Or as paracowboy says: "Big plane good! Old plane bad. Much big plane good. Much big plane and much small plane better. Now hungry."

 

[Kirkhill]

FEED COOOOOKIE.

 

[Infanteer]

Doesn't the C17 have air-to-air refuelling capability?

 

[Kirkhill]

They can do Infanteer.

I don't know if they all do.  But as I understand it fuelling a CF-18, or even a squadron of CF-18s, in flight is a different proposition than fuelling a C-17.  The amount of fuel that needs to be transferred in a short time seems to require not just a larger tank but also bigger pumps, different connection and different lines, all probably acting under higher pressures.  I understand that that is why the US Air Force doesn't use the hose system for refuelling its large aircraft.  Instead of the Hose and Reel used on the KC-130 and our CC-150s they use that flying boom on the larger KC-10. 

If we were to get C-17s that could deploy internationally without allied help then we might have to look at acquiring an even larger number of suitable tankers to get them there.

At least as I understand it.

 

[Infanteer]

Lilypads.  Let's not be concerned about something making one big hop from Canada to Durkadurkastan - can we not re-establish a presence overseas (as we are doing with Mirage) and have "lilypads" in places like Darwin or Diego Garcia?

 

[Kirkhill]

Lilypads are a better idearrr.  How about lilypads with a floating warehouse that can be moved from pad to pad as the geopolitics change?  Prepositioning instead of Amphibious Assault?

The shorter the range involved the fewer, and smaller, the craft needed.    Multiple runs per day instead of days per run.

Always assuming that the lilypads don't move of course.

 

[paracowboy]

Lilypads are a better idearrr.  How about lilypads with a floating warehouse that can be moved from pad to pad as the geopolitics change?  Prepositioning instead of Amphibious Assault?

The shorter the range involved the fewer, and smaller, the craft needed. Multiple runs per day instead of days per run.

Always assuming that the lilypads don't move of course.

I like where this is going. And even when they do, there's always somebody willing to screw over their neighbours for either money or politics. See Uzbekistan and neighbours.

 

[Kirkhill]

The world is full of "small", "poor" countries that would be likely willing to host a base - longterm or short-term.   A few million dollars, a new dock and airfield, instant ally.   It is then possible to claim "international support" for the enterprise ..... and the world is a happy place ;D

Works for everyone else.   Why not Canada?   Defender of international ideals.

Cheers

Edit: Must seek treatment for that "facetious" gene.  It keeps getting in the way of good ideas.

Realistically we could go into the business of creating our own "lilypads".  We probably should and could if we are truly perceived as "honest-brokers", "impartial" "non-colonials".  For example a base on the Comoros, the world's poorest country by some measures off the east coast of Africa, would make a great launching pad for humanitarian and "peace-support" missions in the area.  A few thousand miles closer than Diego.

On the other hand we could use existing lilypads, those of our allies, like Diego, or Dhekelia in Cyprus or Singapore or Darwin etc.... but that would require the government to declare a position and enter into meaningful alliances.

 

[Jungle]

On the other hand we could use existing lilypads, those of our allies, like Diego, or Dhekelia in Cyprus or Singapore or Darwin etc.... but that would require the government to declare a position and enter into meaningful alliances.

Not to be picky, but Dhekelia is an Army base. The RAF installations, and airbase, are in Akrotiri. IIRC, Dhekelia is East of Larnaca, while Akrotiri is West of Limassol...

 

[Kirkhill]

Shows what happens when you try to get too clever. :-[

Thanks for picking me up on that Jungle.

 

[TCBF]

"Doesn't the C17 have air-to-air refuelling capability?"

Yep.  That's how my Coyote and I got from Ramstein to Kandahar in one hop.

Tom

 

[Kirkhill]

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRC-17.htm
http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/FRF-18C.htm
http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=109
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mrtt/

C17    102,000 - 138,000 litres    of fuel to be transferred
CF-18      6,000 -  10,000 litres

KC-10 can transfer up to 160,000 litres of fuel minus own needs
A-310 MRTT (CC-150) can transfer up to 40,000 litres (carries up to 96,000 litres) 

 

[-rb]

Thought i'd throw this one in here as it seems as good a place as any, more fuel to the fire ...U.S. and Afghan Forces conduct a succesful para drop in Kandahar, killing 13 and detaining dozens more...

U.S. and Afghan Forces Kill 25 Suspected Taliban in Two Raids
Nearly 50 alleged insurgents are detained. The assaults in two provinces on successive days follow an abducted politician's slaying.

By Paul Watson, Times Staff Writer


KABUL, Afghanistan â ” U.S. and Afghan forces killed 25 suspected Taliban fighters and captured dozens more in operations in two southern provinces over two days, Afghan and U.S. officials said.

On Monday, U.S. and Afghan forces killed 12 suspected militants and detained nine others in a raid in Zabol province, the U.S. military said. Soldiers were brought by helicopter into a remote area where militants were believed to be gathering before launching attacks. No casualties were reported among the Afghan and U.S. forces.
   
The operation in Zabol followed a raid in neighboring Kandahar province in which U.S. and Afghan forces killed 13 suspected Taliban fighters, and captured dozens more, in a remote area where a political candidate was kidnapped and executed last week, a provincial official said.

U.S. and Afghan troops dropped by parachute from American aircraft in the operation, which began Sunday, Kandahar Gov. Asadullah Khalid said by telephone from Kandahar city, the provincial capital. None of the coalition troops was injured.

The assault targeted insurgents suspected of killing Khan Mohammed, a candidate for Kandahar's provincial council in the country's Sept. 18 election who was abducted Friday, the governor added. A district commissioner and three policemen were killed along with Mohammed.

At least four other candidates have been killed in the weeks before the election for the lower house of Afghanistan's parliament and provincial councils. It is Afghanistan's first parliamentary election since U.S.-led forces toppled the Taliban's hard-line Islamic regime in late 2001.

Backed by U.S. attack helicopters, the American and Afghan troops, and local police, landed Sunday in the Lal valley, about 50 miles northwest of Kandahar, the governor said. More than 40 suspected insurgents were detained. They are being interrogated, U.S. Col. Jim Yonts, spokesman for the coalition forces, told reporters in Kabul, the Afghan capital.

Khalid said some of them might be released soon, while the rest would be put on trial as Taliban militants.

"I think this was a group that was hiding and getting ready to conduct operations to bring chaos to the process of the elections in Afghanistan, so this [assault] will decrease the danger of the Taliban insurgency," the governor added.

Yonts denied there was any link between the offensive, which was still underway Monday, and Friday's kidnappings and executions.

"What you have here is when coalition forces are notified, through intelligence means, that there are enemy forces in an area, we will quickly and aggressively take the fight to them," Yonts said.

Taliban and allied guerrillas have killed at least 51 U.S. troops in Afghanistan this year, the heaviest combat losses for American forces since the war against the Taliban and its allies in the Al Qaeda terrorist network began in 2001. More than 1,000 Afghans, many of them civilian victims of insurgent attacks, have died.

But the international security force led by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization in the country considers the militants' attack rate similar to that for the period before last year's presidential election, said Maj. Andrew Elmes, a British spokesman.

Millions of Afghans defied Taliban threats and turned out to vote in an election won by President Hamid Karzai, a strong U.S. ally.

United Nations organizers say that with more than 5,800 candidates from 72 parties running in the upcoming election, their task is several times more complicated than last year's vote.

In other recent attacks in southern Afghanistan, insurgents killed five Afghan police officers in an ambush Sunday. The previous day, guerrillas killed three Afghan police officers guarding a supply convoy headed to a U.S. military base.

Despite daily attacks by guerrillas across large swaths of southern and eastern Afghanistan, Yonts said the U.S. military saw the attacks as local or regional operations without any national coordination.

"In our assessment, it is not connected to any kind of a network," he said. "You will see an individual attack here, you may see an individual attack in this [other] province over here. But there is nothing that we see that fuses that together from any sort of an infrastructure, or coordinated program."

The insurgents mainly operate in cells of one to five fighters, Yonts said.

Seems they had the means to quickly and effectively deal with the threat. Good on em.

 

[GO!!!]

Coulda sworn that said "parachute" and "after a successful drop" - not bad for an outdated technology in the context of fighting an insurgency.... although I'm sure the naysayers will say it should have been done by helo.... :

AIRBORNE!!!!

 

[Kirkhill]

AIRBORNE!!!!

Or in the words of my father's old mob (1 Para) "Wahoooooo Mahomet".  ;D

 

[KevinB]

Quick, a vital and relevant capability!  Lets dismantle it more...  :

 

[Spr.Earl]

Whoooo Mahomet!!
I will post that as a Question where and why does it come from?
I know.


Para's are the cheapest and most effective light troops if used properly.
Enough said.

I had the honour of meeting the last Brit Para who jumped during the Suez Crises,he was a Taffy,Tiger Jones as he was known in 1 para,as I learnt later he was wounded in the leg while fighting through the cemetary while advancing from ther DZ.

Air Borne Troops(all trades) if used properly can be very effective.

We must bring our Para's back.

 

[baboon6]

1 Para didn't jump at Suez, it was 3 Para.

 

[Kirkhill]

1,2 and 3 Battalions did combat jumps in Tunisia in 1942.
(The first jump was by 3 Bn under the command of Lt. Col Pine-Coffin ------  as soon as the paras landed the local Arabs were all over them helping them out of their chutes, chutes that ended up as underwear at a useful profit apparently)

As to Waho Mahomet, story I heard was that the paras were amused by the sight of an old Arab on the back of donkey, perhaps at the mounting base of Bone.  Apparently the donkey wasn't best pleased with the circumstances and took off across the airfield with old Arab on his back.  The last sight anybody had of the old fella was him disappearing into the sunset yelling Whoa Mahomet.  Presumably the name of the donkey.

"The Red Beret" tells another tale of Arabs calling across valleys and starting every call with Waho Mohamet.  I'll take the word of a 1 Para chap that served with guys from Tunisia, besides it makes a better story. ;D

Anyway, after that 1 Para adopted Waho Mahomet as both their jump cry and also their battle cry.  French Legionnaires serving alongside of them reported hearing them going into the assault yelling Waho Mahomet, no doubt causing the Germans some consternation.

 

[claybot]

Jungle

I should have gotten back to your points sooner but I got busy

It takes courage (not to be confused with Bravery) to exit an aircraft from a thousand feet, with full combat gear, in the middle of the night, jumping into a place you've never been to... a lot of people lack that courage, and most of the opponents of Parachute / Airborne Troops come from them

I would partially agree with you on as I have never had any desire to jump out of a aircraft with a full combat load. I've met a lot of courageous people in my life and a lot of them never jumped out of airplanes or had a desire to so. Basically you would probably have to drag me onto the aircraft hold me down until lift off then either kick or throw me out. But what has any of this got to do with the thread I started.

Has the Light Infantry Battalion/Airborne proved its worth in the Canadian Army based on the above statement?
If so how and on what missions (list)? (World War 2 doesn't count)

This is what I meant by the question I asked.

After 9/11 the Light Infantry Battalions were on the chopping block and from what I recall 3rd VanDoo was already beginning to disband when OP APOLLO came around. Many believe that the mission should have gone to Mech Battalion such as 2 PPCLI as they were back from Bosnia and still had a lot of troops. Instead 3 PPCLI an understrength battalion was sent and had to be augmented by the entire C Company 2 PPCLI as well as pers from Sniper, Recce and other organizations.
This in turn resurrected the Light Infantry Battalion.
I view this mission a failure for the Light Infantry Concept as it proved that mech forces could do Light missions without a problem. If this mission were a true LIB mission then the extra company/manpower should have been drawn from one of the other two Light Infantry Battalions either RCR or VanDoo.
For OP ATHENA missions all the LIBs were using LAV and Iltis/G-Wagon. If LAV's were required then it is a Mech mission not a Light mission.

But this thread has drifted away from the entire focus.

For your other point

Yeah... ignorance talking again... I belong to a Para Coy, and just this week, the Troops have conducted the following drops from C-130s:
one day, no eqpt, double-door jump
one night, full eqpt, double door jump
one day, no eqpt, ramp jump (after the drop of a heavy eqpt platform)
one day, full eqpt, double door jump
one day, no eqpt, ramp jump (with civilians as observers)
That's 5 jumps in 5 days... not all weeks are like that, but we get a fair number of C-130 jumps. We have C-130s lined up for Oct and Nov as well. CH-146 jumps are useful to keep Parachute skills honed.
Claybot, re-read my previous post in this thread, you will likely recognize yourself in the last part 
The biggest problem we have in our Army is jealousy... It is one of the major obstacles preventing us from moving forward on a lot of projects.

You got me there after reading your profile who would no better about whats going on in Para company than someone who is serving in one. Obviously my information was incorrect and I apologize.

But if you are getting into jealousy in the Army remember its a two way street. There are those of us who want to see the Jump cabability gone for good and those in the Jump companies who would like to see every one jump qualified. Both sides have good arguments for debate, which is kind of hard to tell on this forum as it seems there are more pro para people on this site than in the Army.

There are a lot of posts through out this site talking about successful jumps in the last few years like Afghanistan. But the US has the capability to support those troops once they hit the ground we do not.

We do not have the airlift to resupply or the use of supporting Attack Helicopters and Fast Air to aid any forces we drop in.

Are we going to allow our Para Companies to Jump into battle without support. Most Airborne forces are only good for 72 hours without resupply and in this day and age its more like 24 hours before they cease to exist as a fighting formation. Is this what the supporters of our Airborne forces want?

Are our jump companies willing to be an expendable force?

We as an Army do not have the MONEY to properly TRAIN, EQUIP and SUPPORT any Jump capability in a combat role. If we did then the Para Companies would be Para Battalions with dedicated aircraft that could drop in the battalion in one lift.

If we have to re-equip every LIB with LAV's to every time they go on a mission then they might as well train as a Mech Force.

Yes rambling on again.............