Life after death

[Cloud Cover]

Interesting article in the National Post: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/life-after-life-does-consciousness-continue-after-our-brain-dies

The conventional, objective scientific and medical opinion is that when the brain dies, the conscious person dies. With better record keeping and sharing of information, there are instances where people who are scientifically dead but have somehow recovered. What is more, some of them report actually being somewhat conscious during resuscitation and other emergency procedures even though they are flatline for many minutes.

Although it sounds weird and somewhat hokey, some neuroscientists in the AWARE and AWAREII study are positing that conscious feelings - like guilt - are perhaps not necessarily associated wholly with near chemical and electrical brain function but also might include some other -as yet unidentified- function that may be "out of body". They say yes, there are neuro chemical actions associated with perceptions and experiences which terminate with brain death, but is there also something else that is "conscious" at least for a few minutes after brain death occurs?

 

[mariomike]

What is more, some of them report actually being somewhat conscious during resuscitation and other emergency procedures even though they are flatline for many minutes.

Like when they talk about that "bright white light".

Maybe it was the paramedics shining a penlight in their eyes?

 

[Journeyman]

... brain is dead so is the person and there are no other feelings...

Reminds me of a particular Merit Board, back when I was in NDHQ.   

 

[AbdullahD]

I believe the soul lives on.. surprise! Lol

But these anecdotal stories of life after death, I think have more in common with a childs imagination trying to process a traumatic event.. then actual proof of anything.

It is a huge existential crisis for many, facing their mortality. So to think the brain "breaks" and creates a scenario to alleviate that crisis to me.. is far more realistic.

Now having said all that, those who have gone through such situations adamantly and vociferously proclaim that such things did happen and does prove whatever point they wish it to prove... but when Muslims claim they see Muhammad, Christians claim to see Jesus and Jewish people claim they see Moses or what have you and so on and so forth for other religions. It starts to complicate the soundness of the claims, because to many variations in the stories exist.. I would think the result would be far more universal.

I do not think it is anyones place to call people out on their near death or after life experience, unless and of course they are trying to monetize it. But I think in 99% of cases it is an indicator of an underlying issues.. same way some people use religion as a crutch to get through bad times instead of properly putting it away (yes religion can help to put it away, but often it is used to just cover it up).

Any rate thats were I sit... I didn't see an option that made my point.

The after life exists, heaven and God both exists, but we believe on faith.

Abdullah

 

[stoker dave]

There have been lately a number of excellent books that clearly and factually state that there is no god, no afterlife, no nothing.  We are born, we live, we die. 

Religion in general fails "the three P" test:  it is without precedent, it is without proof and it is without parallel. 

We live in a galaxy of about 200 billion stars.  There are something like 200 billion known galaxies.  To suggest that some omniscient, all powerful being (if such a being existed) took any interest in our lives is fanciful.

Make the most of what you have.  Cherish your friends.  Be kind.  You don't need folk tales and mythology to tell you that is right and proper. 

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Dave,

If I read the original article correctly, the suggestion was consciousness, aliveness, could not be fully explained by biological brain function. The article did not go onto state that religion had to be only possible reason.

I am of the opinion that the Universe is a big and complex thing that we don't even begin to understand. So- who knows?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

We'll just have to wait and see when the lights go out.

The one truth is that that those lights will go out. The rest is speculation.

I do know, for myself anyway, things are easier to accept and parse, now that I've pretty well given up on religion. I don't feel the need to be constricted or restrained by something that was written thousands of years ago. My upbringing and family values set my moral compass and continue to do so. My background wasn't especially religious, but at the age of twelve, I attended Temple, Salvation Army, United, Catholic, Anglican and Baptist churches. My mother had one rule at the time and that was to attend church. Didn't care which one, but I had to go. I decided to use that to my advantage. It gave me a pretty well rounded religious education. Enough so, that I was able to decide what direction to take.

I have faith, just not a religious one.

If there is an afterlife, I'll have to deal with it (or not) when it comes. In the meantime, I don't feel encumbered by religious values to meet a certain goal or live my life according to some unproven omnipotent instruction.

Perhaps there is something there or maybe the visions and conditions are the mass synapse firings of the dying brain. Kinda like seeing stars when the brain is injured.

Whatever it is, if it exists, will exist no matter what religious values a person holds. I think it will be physical and metaphysical, if it happens.

I do remember years ago, there was some scientific study that claimed at the moment of death, there was an ever so slight shift downwards in the weight of the body. Very minuscule. The amount appeared to be in the same general measurement, no matter who the body had been or condition. The speculation, at the time, was that perhaps it was the soul. I don't know if anything ever came of it, I never heard much after the original study.

 

[Cloud Cover]

"do you believe in God?"..... "no, I believe in ammunition."

 

[stoker dave]

I do remember years ago, there was some scientific study that claimed at the moment of death, there was an ever so slight shift downwards in the weight of the body. Very minuscule. The amount appeared to be in the same general measurement, no matter who the body had been or condition. The speculation, at the time, was that perhaps it was the soul. I don't know if anything ever came of it, I never heard much after the original study.

Sorry but that is an urban legend.  There is no scientific data to support this.

Without trying to take this discussion further off track, the relationship between mass and energy is well established (you may be familiar with Einstein's famous E = mcc).  Any change in mass would result in an emission of energy.  No such energy has ever been detected. 

 

[BeyondTheNow]

It makes sense that for a minute amount of time a human might be aware they've indeed died (or are in the process of), since the first method of determining death is when the heart stops beating. (Not all dying/deceased individuals are connected to machines specifically measuring brain activity.)  It's been proven countless times that there can still be brain activity and the possibility of some form of awareness until all electrical impulses in the brain have completely ceased. It's a sobering thought, really.

Having been present during the passing of an individual, it's interesting hearing the accounts from various ICU medical staff (some will openly talk about their experiences and opinions when asked, and/or if audiences are receptive to the information they'll freely discuss), and what their thoughts/feelings are about the entire process of death.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

We'll just have to wait and see when the lights go out.

The one truth is that that those lights will go out. The rest is speculation.

I do know, for myself anyway, things are easier to accept and parse, now that I've pretty well given up on religion. I don't feel the need to be constricted or restrained by something that was written thousands of years ago. My upbringing and family values set my moral compass and continue to do so. My background wasn't especially religious, but at the age of twelve, I attended Temple, Salvation Army, United, Catholic, Anglican and Baptist churches. My mother had one rule at the time and that was to attend church. Didn't care which one, but I had to go. I decided to use that to my advantage. It gave me a pretty well rounded religious education. Enough so, that I was able to decide what direction to take.

I have faith, just not a religious one.

If there is an afterlife, I'll have to deal with it (or not) when it comes. In the meantime, I don't feel encumbered by religious values to meet a certain goal or live my life according to some unproven omnipotent instruction.

Perhaps there is something there or maybe the visions and conditions are the mass synapse firings of the dying brain. Kinda like seeing stars when the brain is injured.

Whatever it is, if it exists, will exist no matter what religious values a person holds. I think it will be physical and metaphysical, if it happens.

I do remember years ago, there was some scientific study that claimed at the moment of death, there was an ever so slight shift downwards in the weight of the body. Very minuscule. The amount appeared to be in the same general measurement, no matter who the body had been or condition. The speculation, at the time, was that perhaps it was the soul. I don't know if anything ever came of it, I never heard much after the original study.

FB,

I believe you're referring to this. I've attached a few articles referencing the study.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/21_grams_experiment

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3025636/

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2004/feb/19/science.science

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/weight-of-the-soul/

Physics has proven the human body possesses energy and it's also proven that energy doesn't just disappear, it gets transferred. I absolutely believe the body has/is energy. I used to believe in a soul and in God, but I'm not really certain what I believe anymore.

 

[stoker dave]

Physics has proven the human body possesses energy and it's also proven that energy doesn't just disappear, it gets transferred. I absolutely believe the body has/is energy. I used to believe in a soul and in God, but I'm not really certain what I believe anymore.

I have spent the last two days trying to decide if I should respond to this post.  On the one hand, I don't wish to start a fight or debate with someone whose mind is already made up.  But on the other hand I cannot let such statements go unchallenged. 

So I decided to speak up (a few glasses of red wine may have helped - hic!).

You are correct that the human body possess energy:  mechanical, heat, electrical and electromagnetic come to mind.  Each of these types of energy is well known and well understood.  Each can be defined and measured.  The mechanisms by which one form of energy is transferred to another are all well understood.  So is the relationship between matter and energy. 

I am ok that you have 'faith'.  Let's agree that 'faith' means that you believe in something even though it cannot be proven (or disproven).  But if you are going to say the body has 'energy', that is a term that has a precise meaning.  It is something that can be measured and proven (or disproven). 

If you are suggesting that there exists some type of 'energy' that has not been defined, has not been shown to exist and possibly violates any number of laws of physics, well, that is wrong.  If your faith suggests that such a thing must exist, that is ok with me.  But please don't call it 'energy'.  Because that is not what it is.

You may be familiar with the expression "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".  If you wish to claim that the human body has 'energy' that has not been identified elsewhere in the universe, cannot be measured and for which there is no proof, the onus is on you to show that such energy exists. 

Again,  I do not wish to criticize you or your faith.  I am criticizing your use of the word 'energy' when such a word is not justified. 

 

[BeyondTheNow]

I have spent the last two days trying to decide if I should respond to this post.  On the one hand, I don't wish to start a fight or debate with someone whose mind is already made up.  But on the other hand I cannot let such statements go unchallenged. 

So I decided to speak up (a few glasses of red wine may have helped - hic!).

You are correct that the human body possess energy:  mechanical, heat, electrical and electromagnetic come to mind.  Each of these types of energy is well known and well understood.  Each can be defined and measured.  The mechanisms by which one form of energy is transferred to another are all well understood.  So is the relationship between matter and energy. 


I am ok that you have 'faith'.  Let's agree that 'faith' means that you believe in something even though it cannot be proven (or disproven).  But if you are going to say the body has 'energy', that is a term that has a precise meaning.  It is something that can be measured and proven (or disproven). 

If you are suggesting that there exists some type of 'energy' that has not been defined, has not been shown to exist and possibly violates any number of laws of physics, well, that is wrong.  If your faith suggests that such a thing must exist, that is ok with me.  But please don't call it 'energy'.  Because that is not what it is.

You may be familiar with the expression "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".  If you wish to claim that the human body has 'energy' that has not been identified elsewhere in the universe, cannot be measured and for which there is no proof, the onus is on you to show that such energy exists. 

Again,  I do not wish to criticize you or your faith.  I am criticizing your use of the word 'energy' when such a word is not justified.

Ah, thanks Dave. There was no intent to be conveying some hidden form of the word energy, or leaving it open to interpretation. I was speaking plainly...instead of saying "has/is" energy, maybe I should've stuck with "possesses" energy only. I simply meant all of the components that cause involuntary actions of the body like heartbeats, digestion, etc. and the impulses in the brain--the firings...all electrical I suppose, but a form of energy.

I don't really know that I have faith anymore, so no fear of offense there either. I think I was just sharing a thought matter-of-factly.

I don't like hearing when others are struggling though. It saddens me, because I know what they’re going through. People can be firm in their non-belief or firm in their belief of whatever it may be, and I respect their positions. I've gone back and forth before, but I'd say a lot of it in the past was due to teenage/early life angst. This is different though. Aw well, c'est la vie. I just figured I'd open up the venue given a few comments/thoughts shared earlier.

Edit to add (this isn’t directed towards anyone, just a few afterthoughts):

It’s important that people aren’t looked down upon for either believing, or not believing, in what they do or don’t. There are many, many experiences each of us encounter which shape our thought processes, value-systems and personalities. Our morals and beliefs, no matter what they are, comfort us, give us strength and/or guide our behaviour, whether religious, atheist, agnostic...or other.

Obviously, don’t get me wrong though...religious fanaticism  (which yes, exists in *every* religion) isn’t something I tolerate. One’s beliefs doesn’t give them the right to be unnecessary assholes (non-believers included) in the name of whatever and infringe on the rights of others...but that’s an entirely different topic.

 

[mariomike]

All very scientific - so, I looked up what a physicist had to say,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAdXtadaFB4

I'm not a scientist. But, speaking only for myself,  you cannot be near the new dead without feeling something.

 

[NotSoWiseKingSolomon]

I believe in life after death as promised by the One True Church of Christ, the Holy Roman Catholic Church.
https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/new-research-confirms-life-after-death.html

"Until now, scientists have been almost universally skeptical of these claims, which are based on anecdotal evidence and often veer into decidedly flaky New Age realms.

But now two reputable British scientists have subjected these experiences to scientific investigation and their conclusions are mind-expanding: Human consciousness exists independently of the physical state of the body and brain.

In research due to be published next year in Resuscitation, the journal of the European Resuscitation Council, Peter Fenwick, a consultant neuropsychiatrist of the British Institute of Psychiatry, and Sam Parnia, a clinical research fellow and registrar at University Hospital, Southampton, will announce that consciousness exists independently of the brain, based on their interviews with 63 people who had survived an almost-fatal heart attack.

They discovered that seven had experienced the so-called near death experience. Of those, four qualified under the Grayson scale, the narrowly defined medical criteria for assessing the validity of near-death experiences.

The four survivors, who included three non-practising Anglicans and one lapsed Catholic, recounted feelings of peace and joy, heightened senses, encountering a mystical being and coming to "a point of no return."

 

[SeaKingTacco]

I knew a guy with Terminal cancer. About 10 days before the cancer got him, he went into cardiac arrest. He was flatlined for 15 mins and then they got his heart re-started and he came back to life.

He recounted to me what he remembered of that 15 mins. He remembered being out of his body, watching the medical team. He remembered feeling peaceful and joyful and certainly not alone. he saw "something" that convinced him that there was unity in the universe- that we were all connected to everything and that we were effective eternal. He had difficulty putting it into words, but he no longer feared death after that experience and was absolutely certain that life continues, in another form. He died about a week later, but in his last week, he was happy.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, but his experience has deeply affected me, to this day.

 

[NavyHopeful]

I grew up in a mixed bag of beliefs (Great-grandfather was a Baptist minister, Dad is an atheist, Mom is a Jehovah's witness, step-dad is Catholic, etc.) so when the time came for me to enter my religion onto my military docs, I put NRE.  It isn't that I don't have a belief in God.  I just don't have any faith in human beings as a mass group.  If there is anything that chapters upon chapters of history has shown me is that someone always believes that they are right and everyone else is wrong, and the right will stop at nothing to convert everyone else to their philosophy.  It doesn't matter whether it is religious, cultural, or even political.  The "Us against them" mentality has become a way of life for too many of our species, and goes against EVERY moral teaching that every religion is supposed to teach.

Does everyone remember the Golden Rule?  We all should have learned it as children.  It is Rule Number One for almost EVERY religion on this planet.  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  Or for the plain-worded, like myself, "Treat others the way you would want to be treated."

I don't care if someone identifies as Catholic, Muslim, or Atheist just like I don't care is someone identifies as LGBTQ.  My main concern comes down to the "Is this person a good person" test.  If I am treated with respect, I give it back in full.  If you treat me like I am a piece of trash, I will still give you a modicum of respect, but I will not go out of my way to make your life better than mine.

As for the beliefs of some regarding the after-life, I wish ?I could take solace in the beliefs that I will live forever, or that I'll be surrounded by everyone I love.  The only control I have over anything is the path my life takes NOW.  I could spend a lifetime WAITING to get into the "Kingdom of Heaven" or I could make my own heaven while I'm still here.  Nothing will be perfect, because humans are not perfect, but I don't envision my version of heaven being anything more than me being around my children, and being the best father to them that I can be.  To me, Heaven is not a place, it is a state of mind and level of heart.  And every day I thank whatever God there is (whether God exists or not is irrelevant to this, by the way) that I was blessed with my children, and that someone trusted me to guide these kids into who they can be as they grow up.

They say that prejudices and hatred aren't born, they are taught.  I agree with this, and add that as long as a person follows what is good and right in their heart, they will almost always be a good person.  Treat others with respect, look out for one another, and don't blindly judge someone for what they did or did not do.  Be the better person and do the right thing, no matter what everyone else will say because in the end, you are the only person you have to answer to, and you have to be able to look yourself in the mirror and know the truth.

Live well, my friends.

Rev

 

[mariomike]

Woman resuscitated from cardiac arrest says heaven is real.

Paramedic says: "I was a witness to a miracle."
https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/tattoo-viral-real-message-heaven

Ever wonder why no one who is resuscitated comes back and says Hell is real, don't do what I have done? 

 

[BeyondTheNow]

Woman resuscitated from cardiac arrest says heaven is real.

Paramedic says: "I was a witness to a miracle."
https://www.foxnews.com/faith-values/tattoo-viral-real-message-heaven

Ever wonder why no one who is resuscitated comes back and says Hell is real, don't do what I have done? 

There are several documented accounts of just that actually...

Edit to add: Meaning that MM insinuated that no one reports life-after-death experiences involving Hell. I pointed out that they are indeed documented and those who’ve experienced them feel just as strongly about their validity as those who have experienced life-after-death instances involving Heaven.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Sure. Here’s one: you die and for some reason you see you are heading to a place where your credit card broken adult kids move back in.  Run that heartbeat back to full throttle.