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lf Canadians will not support me now, I am compelled to join the Taliban

armyvern

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TheHead said:
We may have not put his kids in that situation BUT we did promise him compensation which he hasnt revieved. If he turns into an insurgent its our fault. 

It is the standard to pay "compensation" such as this; you're correct.

It is also in keeping with the religious and traditional beliefs of those of whom we are there to help.

Within their Muslim religious beliefs is the belief that compensation must be made for a wrongful death or that retaliation must occur.

Much like the family of a murder victim are invited to execute their loved ones killer(s) themselves; they may also choose to accept a payment of some form of compensation instead. That is their culture ... and has been for a millenia. Long before we arrived - so those of you who think this is a simple act to get rich off "us" need to think again. When one's religious beliefs see this as appropriate ... those of us who see it as inappropriate should ensure we go the proper route which is acceptable to our western standards --- and that is to pay the compensation.

That's normal. This isn't the first (and I'm quite sure it won't be the last) Muslim country where a "wrongful" death has been compensated in this manner by this Nation. This also occured in Somalia as an example. When we drop the ball on that --- it's us who have failed. We know what their culture and what their religion lays out for them as their alternative. That's why we choose to compensate and that's why we enter the agreements that we do. Don't blame the guy when we've not lived up to our end of it yet.

Hearts and minds people.

Some of you are picking the wrong poison.
 

TheHead

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George Wallace said:
Think about it.  Do we have to do the Christian thing and turn the other cheek all the time and let ourselves be walked over by people who have no respect for our society or way of life?  Frankly, people can only take so much, and eventually they will react.  That things are being said, does not necessarily mean that they will be done.  It is called venting.  I am sure there is no way in the world that we would ever locate this fellow at any time in the future to drop a Nuke, Napalm, JADAM or anything else that would be fatal on his retched person.  So, I really don't care if you have had enough.  So have we all.  A threat was made.  People are responding in kind.  Live with it.


I was always taught reciprocity and professionalism. This man lost his children and is venting, he's allowed to be pissed even though the driver is maybe to blame (I'm saying maybe because I don't know the situation that killed these kids). This man isn't walking over us, we promised him money after we killed his children in an accident and he never recieved it.  They may be responding it in kind but they are doing it in an unprofessional manner. This man lost his family, these board warriors didn't. That's my opinion, live with it.


Also Vern I thank you for elaborating more on a position I agree with.

Take care.
 

Burrows

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Well, he's lost his kids, his own home, and his means of generating income because the Taliban was rubbed the wrong way over his situation.

If he can't feed his family for all the red tape, I can definitely see his side of the story.
 

The Bread Guy

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For what it's worth, a bit more CLIPINT re:  the driver and other issues, presented with the usual caveats about MSM coverage...

Globe & Mail, 29 Jul 08 (.pdf)
....Something hot seared his left ear, he said. Twisting around in the front passenger seat, (the father) saw the destroyed bodies of his son and daughter behind him. His wife remained sitting in the backseat, shocked but not hurt. The hired driver also escaped injury....

National Post, 31 Jul 08
The father of two children accidentally killed by Canadian soldiers says he wants revenge.  "If I get a chance, I will kill Canadians," Rozi Muhammed said Thursday ....  Soldiers say the driver sped towards them without stopping. Rozi Muhammed said the driver at first pulled over but inexplicably drove back onto the highway after two armoured vehicles had passed when more were on the way.... When asked what he wants to happen now, Muhammed twice said he wants to "kill Canadians."  However, after a few moments, he added: "I am a poor man, they should help me."  Canadian officials say they have talked to Muhammed and offered him their condolences. They have also started the process of deciding whether to pay compensation which, in past accidental killings, has ranged from $2,000 to $9,000 .... 

CBC.ca, 31 Jul 08
.... "I got in taxi with my wife, daughter and son. The convoy was coming. The taxi pulled out after the second vehicle passed and the third vehicle fired on us," he said, speaking through an interpreter....

I haven't spotted any MSM coverage where they asked the driver why he didn't stop (although someone far wiser than me has suggested he'd be an intriguing person for ISAF to keep track of after the incident....)

More on links....

- edited to highlight a few more salient points -
 

1feral1

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ArmyVern said:
More like your above won't happen ... and that's the real difference between us and them.

My thoughts were more collectively than on the individual,  that being any enemy force who attacks us and wants to kill us, if applicable, send it a fire mission to avoid sending in the lads.

During my time in Iraq, when we recieved IDF, it was often met with counter Bty fire, otherwords, paying back with HE and yes, forgetting about them.

Regret any confusion I may have expressed.
 

brihard

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Damn, thanks, I'd forgotten those details. I remember remarking on them when this story first broke.
 

Eye In The Sky

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TheHead said:
We may have not put his kids in that situation BUT we did promise him compensation which he hasnt revieved. If he turns into an insurgent its our fault. 

You'll never convince me it is our fault for the choices he has and he alone will make.  
 

brihard

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Eye In The Sky said:
You'll never convince me it is our fault for the choices he has and he alone will make.  

All he did was get in a taxi.

When the driver of the taxi tried to pull out into the convoy, buddy had exactly as much time to react as the LAV gunner did- maybe a second or two. It's not like he chose to put his kids at risk. He was trying to get form point A to point B and ended up picking a taxi driver from the shallow end of the gene pool.
 

armyvern

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Eye In The Sky said:
You'll never convince me it is our fault for the choices he has and he alone will make.  

Arguing whether or not his children's deaths were indeed "wrongful" is an entirely different matter.

A matter which, at this point in time is moot, as he has already entered into agreement with this nation for compensation for those deaths --- and it's this nation who's apparently not anted up what they agreed to yet.

We negotiated to compensate him. We came to an agreement with him. Ante up.

For the record: I believe his children are dead precisely because of the driver's actions. I do not believe there was any "wrongfulness" on the part of the Canadian soldier(s) involved. War is sometimes - hell.

But, someone agreed to compensate the father. It now needs to happen.
 

Jarnhamar

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Give me money or I join the Taliban. Garbage.
But he's upset!
Ya, so? My heart goes out to him but that's not an excuse for being dumb.
What will the Taliban offer him?  A chance to set off an IED that will 'hopefully' take out a NATO soldier but most likely will just end up killing MORE Afghanistan citizens? Who's children will his IED kill? Any of his own family? Real bright.

Sorry this give me money or  join the other side comment is bullshit and in my opinion indicitive of people sitting on the fence who don't care what happens to the country. "Whatever whoever pays me more" Me me me

Why don't we hear stories about when the Taliban kill locals and then locals 'getting' revenge by helping us out? 

The flavor of that mans comments is I want my money or else.  That's it.

Local driviers in Afghanistan drive like maniacs. When they walk around they take their time and their relaxed. It's like watching someone move underwater.
Once they get behind the wheel it's like the devil is chasing them.  Who's at fault? The taxi driver.  Canadians try and do the right thing and say 'you know what? We're going to try and help you anyways'.  But buddy wants the money "now". So he's going to join the group of people that threatened him for asking for compensation?
Good luck with the Taliban I'm sure they will treat you like gold fella  ::)
 

1feral1

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TheHead said:
I'm done with this.  I have vested interest in that beautiful country and civilians that get killed deeply saddens me, it undermines everything we do.

Keep in mind to the cowboys who make stupid comments about killing this man in any form, what kind of impression are you giving civilians, Afghans, the media and others who read these boards. Think about it.

Dear kind Sir, I am sorry if I offended you.

I guess we should all drop our weapons, melt them down, turn them into plow shears, assist the locals in bringing the poppy crop off, and all have a big group hug with the Taliban and their supporters. We all can then hold hands merrily, and dance with glee accross the local mine field, while issuing out Canadianisms like pancake mix and maple syrup to boot. Yes, all this kindness to many who would rather dance in rejoice as you bled out from your throat being cut, with their free hand (the other is holding the pancake mix and maple syrup). Sorry for being cynical, but really......

But please Sir, you're missing my point. Compensation is one thing, but to demand that, or defect to the En, then threaten to kill us is another. With the shoe on the other foot, imagine how many Canadian citizens take to the above extortion threat, and what they think of the locals, and a supposed 'good guy' at that.' With all the publicity, if he accepts the money, thats collaboration with the 'Great Satan', in our Enemy's eyes, and no doubt will get him 'despatched' by Timmy and Co.

If we cut a deal to shut him up, them pay him the pittance he is entitled to, and lets move on. Summing up, the 'pay up or I'll kill you' attitude does not wash with me.

The deaths in question are not the fault of the CF. 110% blame goes to the driver of the car. Personally, my thoughts are with the Lads who opened fire, and I stand behind their decison even in hindsight.  Back in Jan 07 in Iraq, we shot and KILLED a US garbage truck operator because he would not stop at our checkpoint. I seen him on many occasions, and I will never forget his face. He was from Texas, and had just returned from a trip home. That even made The Stars and Stripes middle east addition.

Oh, and I am far from a cowboy, it could have been worse though, you could have referred to me as a gay cowboy  ;D . Fear naught, I am just a simple Veteran, who has earned his opinion by being at the coalface, just like you have according to your profile.

Thank you Sir, for taking the time to read my response to your post.

Happy days, peace, love, and of course harmony, but most importantly Serenity Now,

OWDU. 
 

karl28

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              People please remember that this man is grieving right now . People do and say allot of foolish things when there grieving. What I understand from reading the article that all he did was get  into a taxi .  Its just a bad situation all around  the poor guy manning the gun has like two seconds to decide weather this is a suicide bomber or a dumb ass sadly here it was just a dumb ass Taxi Driver.       
          I do think that because the father apparently didn't due anything wrong that the Canadian Government should help him out what that help should be I would leave up to the professionals .     
 

vonGarvin

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George Wallace said:
Think about it.  Do we have to do the Christian thing and turn the other cheek all the time and let ourselves be walked over by people who have no respect for our society or way of life?  
A bit OT, or perhaps even ON Topic: "turning the other cheek" is a very mis-understood lesson.  Normally it's taken to mean just as you say above: get walked over, and allow others to have their way.  That's not the message.  The message is to FORCE the other person to have their way, but on YOUR terms.  A subtle difference, perhaps, but allow me to put into context.

At the time of Jesus, if a slave owner were to slap his slave, he would hit him on the back hand, a sort of way to show the "servant" who was boss.  Jesus said "turn the other cheek", in effect, allowing the slave owner (or whoever) to still slap you, but to slap you as he would a social equal: with his forehand.  You still got slapped, but the other person got the message: you are demanding, and getting, better treatment.

Anyway, back to the topic in hand...
 

armyvern

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Peace, love, serenity, apologies my ass.

Enough with that horseshit already. It's really fucking old now. Hypocrit.
 

Jarnhamar

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For every warning shot that results in a death which we read about there are well over a hundred warning shots that stop drivers from getting too close saving their lives.
 

armyvern

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Flawed Design said:
For every warning shot that results in a death which we read about there are well over a hundred warning shots that stop drivers from getting too close saving their lives.

Absolutely agreed.

No one is arguing that the driver wasn't at fault here. But, the father wasn't the driver. Neither were the two kids. War is hell.
_______________________________________________________________________

This nation entered into an agreement with the father to pay him compensation for his loss despite the fact it was the driver's fault. We haven't held up our end yet.

How the heck does it becomes dad's fault that Canada isn't holding up her end? Bet that's going over really well amongst the local populace in instilling the "trustworthiness" of the troops they're dealing with eh?

Hearts and minds people. The reprecussions of stuff like this are much bigger than this one grieving father. Things like this are done with "mission" in mind --- not your own personal beliefs.

The custom over there (and we know it - ergo the agreement "WE" entered - like it or not) is to be compensated or to retaliate ... which do you really prefer? You know that the later only increases the risk to our troops and decreases the 'credibility' of what we tell them yes?
 

Jarnhamar

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Nice pic Vern  ;D

'
ArmyVern said:
This nation entered into an agreement with the father to pay him compensation for his loss despite the fact it was the driver's fault. We haven't held up our end yet.

Oh I agree. Compensate the man. Win the hearts and minds etc..
Right now I'm looking at/ hearing about projects that are just coming around. Some of them are just beginning. Some are set to commence in the near future.
These are projects I remember being told were supposed to start "months ago" when I got to Afghanistan in 2006.
I'm out of my lane here but from what I DO know about the CF, we're a little slow at times.  (How long ago did we start the tacvest and rucksack project?)
Sometimes things take time.  I'm curious how long it has taken us to compensate other cases such as this. If he's being screwed around or treated like everyone else.

How the heck does it becomes dad's fault that Canada isn't holding up her end? bet
Its not.
that's going over really well amongst the local populace in instilling the "trustworthiness" of the troops they're dealing with eh?
It's a two way street and accounts for both Canadians and Afghans. Some Afghans will go kilometers out of their way to warn us that shit's about to go down. Some of them are just awesome dudes.
Others will take your 'hearts and mind' money then turn around and take the Talibans.
Greedy.

We do need to compensate buddy, I'm not sure why we haven't. It's not like were telling this guy to fuck off, they said it can take up to 4 weeks. Ya well 4 weeks may be a long time. It takes me 4 weeks to get a unit patch sewn up by the tailors. Things are slow in Afghanistan.  It's not that were not paying this guy, it's that he wants it NOW

When you're directing traffic over there and you have a guy who's revving his engine, blaring his horn and making hand gestures you make that guy wait. Why? Because if you don't it sets a precedence and EVERY other driver will start doing the same. You'll get rushed and run over.  They all want to be fist. They wanna go NOW.

What happens when Canada rolls over and says "Oh Shit, please don't join the Taliban, we'll get you your money ASAP okay?".
Every single local who has a beef with Canada from the sad death of a family member to not being paid as much as they thought they would for whatever will end up useing that same threat.

Make me happy or I will join the Taliban.
That's a precedence we can't afford to entertain IMO.

Me I would make this guy wait an extra week just to say hey don't threaten us.



 

armyvern

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Why is it blackmail on his part when it's us who hasn't lived up to our part?

And regarding the "greed" ... I'm on way different wavelength on this one. This custom/tradition that is in keeping with their religion has been practiced by generations in Afghanistan. They aren't doing this for greed (I'm sure buddy would much rather have his kids back just as most of us would) ... it's their way of life. They haven't begun this since we got there --- they were doing it long before we got there.

Each and every time that I have deployed - without exception - the CF has taught me that while I am deployed into another's country that I will respect the traditions and culture of that nation. That it is THEIR nation - not ours. In Afghanistan, a huge part of life is all about the hand that you shake. They (and you) have nothing BUT your word, your honour and your integrity there. It's Canada's ability to adapt, and to be respective of "HN" culture and tradition while deployed that makes this nation the success that it is with that "Hearts & Mind" business. It is what makes our troops respected.

It's all about the much bigger picture.
 

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Flawed Design said:
Oh I agree. Compensate the man. Win the hearts and minds etc..
Right now I'm looking at/ hearing about projects that are just coming around. Some of them are just beginning. Some are set to commence in the near future.
These are projects I remember being told were supposed to start "months ago" when I got to Afghanistan in 2006.
I'm out of my lane here but from what I DO know about the CF, we're a little slow at times.  (How long ago did we start the tacvest and rucksack project?)
Sometimes things take time.  I'm curious how long it has taken us to compensate other cases such as this. If he's being screwed around or treated like everyone else.
Its not.It's a two way street and accounts for both Canadians and Afghans. Some Afghans will go kilometers out of their way to warn us that shit's about to go down. Some of them are just awesome dudes.
Others will take your 'hearts and mind' money then turn around and take the Talibans.
Greedy.

We do need to compensate buddy, I'm not sure why we haven't. It's not like were telling this guy to fuck off, they said it can take up to 4 weeks. Ya well 4 weeks may be a long time. It takes me 4 weeks to get a unit patch sewn up by the tailors. Things are slow in Afghanistan.  It's not that were not paying this guy, it's that he wants it NOW

When you're directing traffic over there and you have a guy who's revving his engine, blaring his horn and making hand gestures you make that guy wait. Why? Because if you don't it sets a precedence and EVERY other driver will start doing the same. You'll get rushed and run over.  They all want to be fist. They wanna go NOW.

What happens when Canada rolls over and says "Oh Shit, please don't join the Taliban, we'll get you your money ASAP okay?".
Every single local who has a beef with Canada from the sad death of a family member to not being paid as much as they thought they would for whatever will end up useing that same threat.

Make me happy or I will join the Taliban.
That's a precedence we can't afford to entertain IMO.

Me I would make this guy wait an extra week just to say hey don't threaten us.

I had one hell of a time getting the locals to meet their deadlines on projects. Everything always ran days\weeks late. Never mind trying to get the thing started on time. 'Please Sir, Insha'Allah' was always the excuse.

Usage of Insha'Allah derives from Islamic scripture, Surat Al Kahf (18):24 : "And never say of anything, 'I shall do such and such thing tomorrow. Except (with the saying): 'If God wills!' And remember your lord when you forget..."

Once you understand and accept that concept, heart rate and blood pressure drop, life becomes much simpler, etc.  :) Perhaps we should start playing the same card with them. Following the first golden rule of CIMIC 'Never promise anything' probably wouldn't hurt either.

Meh. Give it to him. We've paid out a lot more for less reason and return.
 

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I agree with Vern, differant culture and for them as crass as it is to Western Standards compensation is a time honoured tradition that either your paid in ( insert re-compsense here ) for a slight-up to major family loss.  Or expect that man or family to feel obligated to do something to get his honour back.  I don't agree with it, but I do understand it.  Regardless of the situation that led to his loss ( not commenting on that ) he feels he is at this point now. 

For Canadians or Western Nations in general we are sitting on the double edge sword of prompt payment ( see new industry in some of the locals minds ) or possible alienation for ensuring that payment is made only in cases we feel we were at fault. (

My 2cents
 
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