Let "The Journey" Begin

[Haggis]

NAVres was doing this.  Not sure if they still are.  They would force people to find another class B after they did a three year contract.

Not always.  True, they would re-compete most contracts after three years, but many NAVRES sailors did six years in the same position.

And this speaks to the bigger issue of P Res career management.  The  P Res is not a "career", nor should it be.  It's a second job.  It's a temporary primary job (Class B, for a few years, maybe) and a great beginner's job.  The NAVRES has "career-ified" P Res service and they have done so by instituting a working career management function much like D Mil C does for the Reg F.  The Air Reserve does much the same thing but they also deal with a population which is, for the most part, ex Reg F and not looking for a second shot at making it to the top.  The Army Reserve, on the other hand have also managed to "career-ify" P Res service but without any of the enablers.  In short, an Army Reservist is his/her own career manager. Nobody in the Army Reserve outside your unit is looking out for you to take the next progressive step.
'

 

[Jarnhamar]

I guess you won't get any argument here - except perhaps to note that in general "time in rank" is a piss-poor way to evaluate performance and skill, and perhaps a less 1950s personnel management system would improve outcomes.

It's less about performance and skill and more about exposure and presence.

A private in the regular force will spend a lot more hours working and being exposed to the work place than a private in the reserves before being promoted to corporal, which is a non-commissioned officer (and leader of troops in some other countries).

If a private in the reserves did the bare minimum they could essentially get promoted after 2 years of showing up to work once a month for 3 hours.

 

[Remius]

Which is why they need to bring back actual metrics for PRes to get promoted to CPL.

Used to be you needed a certain amount of time in the field ie at least one 7 day concentration like SG or Southern Drive and a QL4. 

It isn’t perfect but it was something.

 

[BeyondTheNow]

The instability of being on Class B is what made me jump ship to the PS.

I’ve been asked multiple times to consider CTing to PRes by those I work directly alongside. (RegF, but currently working in a PRes unit.) I’ve said no each time, which usually resulted in a discussion about various reasons pertaining to my personal preference, as well as professional pros and cons...one main one being job stability—I’m not a fan of the in-principle theory of having to compete for my job every 3yrs.

That being said, one thing I’m observing is that trade clearly has an impact as to whether or not job stability is actually a legitimate concern. I’d assume Environment plays a large factor (having never worked under any but Army) and the specific unit is part of the equation also. For example, I work with multiple long-time cl B’ers, the longest being 28yrs. But as I understand it, this scenario would be practically impossible for a straight-up PRes Infantryman. I can’t compare the rarity of pers at my unit’s situations with others either, as most of my friends/acquaintances are RegF and I’m really only aware of a very small fraction of FTUC movement among staff at nearby units.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

It's less about performance and skill and more about exposure and presence.

A private in the regular force will spend a lot more hours working and being exposed to the work place than a private in the reserves before being promoted to corporal, which is a non-commissioned officer (and leader of troops in some other countries).

If a private in the reserves did the bare minimum they could essentially get promoted after 2 years of showing up to work once a month for 3 hours.

On top of this...is the big difference between Res and Reg TOS.  They aren't on the hook for nearly as much as Reg force people are, and that doesn't matter if its Class A, B, or B (A).  I've done all 3 classes of Res time.  I don't think the pay delta should be 8%; no offense to reservists; the avg reservist just don't bring the same skills, knowledge and competencies to the table the average Reg Force person does and they aren't 'deployable' like we are. 

If the SWAT Team Cl A folks are "being underpaid" as far as the GoC is concerned, then so am I and everyone else on Reg Force TOS.  CL B, while full time, isn't the same TOS as Reg Force TOS either.  The CL B pay should reflect that, just as CL C does when they fill a reg force position for a period of svc.

 

[MARS]

On top of this...is the big difference between Res and Reg TOS.

CL B, while full time, isn't the same TOS as Reg Force TOS either. 

And I think the compensation and benefits differences  reflect that.  I've done 5 Cl B moves....not because I wanted to but because NAVRES ordered me to, if I wanted to stay employed.  I got 1000 dollars as my move grant.  I forget what RegF folks get...a half months pay or something?  There are doubtless pther differences as well.  So I'm not sure base pay is the only market of differing TOS. 

I tries to CT in the 1990s...the offer was pure crap.  I was a reservist  Lt(N) instructing a RegF MARS iV course...and I was told I would drop two ranks and would be required to complete the course I was instructing.  So the old "take your CT" argument isnt as simple as people like to suggest.  When the RegF finally stopped being totally  retarted in their CT process, there was zero intake at my rank level for years. 

I recently 'retired' INTO the RegF specifically so I WOULDN'T have to move any more.  Such are the terms of the RCN "Big Idea" for my rank and occupation.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Isn't this more related to "why Cl B shouldn't be a career" arguments, though, vice "should a Cl A reservist make 8% less than a reg force member?"  While I get the CT frustration (I've done one)...I don't think it related directly to compensation between Res/Reg.  As I've said, I've been paid as a Cl A, B and B(A) reservist and as a Reg Force member. 

So, while I see and have lived, at least some of the  :brickwall: you have in some way...I don't think your examples above support "res should make almost as much as Reg".  You simply didn't live within the same TOS and expectations as a Res as you do as a Reg member.

Cl B TOS is 'full time' but...you can't really be sent outside Canada against your will.  I don't that option and the number of CFTPOs for named ops I've done the last 5 years and change reflect that.  Deployment allowances and benefits don't really belong in that part of the discussion;  a reservist would receive the exact same ones as me if they deployed like me and also be on CL C.  The biggest difference though, is the...expectation? (I know reg force people avoid deployments...that's another separate topic...) that I will be deployable, and in my case, with a very short fuse between phone call saying "pack bags" and when we put wheels in the well.  I know that is not the average ready posture the majority of the CAF holds, but those of us who do hold it...8% more pay for that asspain 6 months at a time or longer??  It doesn't seem worth it to me.

Leads to another question;  if you are a spec trade MOSID, and go Reserve in the same Spec trade MOSID...but aren't doing your primary MOSID duties anymore...is the taxpayer getting their back for the buck paying you spec pay?  Aircrew NCMs are perfect examples.  Let's say they take a Cl A or B position in a Sqn Ops shop...scheduling and admin are the primary functions.  No flying, operating and maintaining currency and proficiency.  Is spec pay being earned?

 

[daftandbarmy]

I know that is not the average ready posture the majority of the CAF holds, but those of us who do hold it...8% more pay for that asspain 6 months at a time or longer??  It doesn't seem worth it to me

Then we should have a national Class A 'in case of operational deployments break glass' list. I know people who'd give their eye teeth to up sticks and go on a deployment somewhere, and this is a good way for the reserves to help operations. Just keep the list topped up with properly trained and 'DAG Green' Class A personnel, with all their Class C paperwork ready to go.

Unlike when it took them 4 months to pay me for a measly 2 week hitch on OP LENTUS a couple of years ago....  :

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Then we should have a national Class A 'in case of operational deployments break glass' list. I know people who'd give their eye teeth to up sticks and go on a deployment somewhere, and this is a good way for the reserves to help operations. Just keep the list topped up with properly trained and 'DAG Green' Class A personnel, with all their Class C paperwork ready to go.

Don't the CBGs have some sort of "higher ready" sub-unit internally?  TBGs or something?

Unlike when it took them 4 months to pay me for a measly 2 week hitch on OP LENTUS a couple of years ago....  :

Don't feel bad, pay/compensation/allowances are fucked up in the Reg force world too!  :nod:  I've been home from a named Op deployment since end-Nov.  I've yet to receive my tax free, Ops FSP, HA and RA.

They did, however, finalize our claims and determine that "WHOOPS!" our Det shouldn't have received incidentals the whole time...and did up the paperwork to recover money from us.  :not-again:

Since the 2018 named op deployment, I've done another named op deployment.  they got the tax free and Ops FSP right this time, but not the HA/RA...and just let us know "whoops!" they advanced us too much on our claim so...more money being recovered.  Did I mention that I have an IDTC and IAW the CFTDI...I am not supposed to get advances on my claim?  I don't understand how I am not pay/admin and I know these things...but they don't.  FUBAR.

 

[kratz]

With all the opposition to this change, it appears the RegF want to treat the PRes more like Walmart greeters.

Lets just "rollback" the pay and benefits to pre-1997 levels:

- 60% of RegF pay
- only CASDA for SHADS
- rermove PILL
- remove VAC access
- remove part l.1 of the CFSA
- remove BGRS moves for SHADS
- ect...  and....
- don't forget to not reintroduce any benefits remove since then (ie: RFRG)

 

[Remius]

Spit balling again with ideas.

I think in the PS anyone’s who is a term or casual employee gets the same pay rate as their indeterminate colleagues.  But...

I believe they are paid at the lowest step level and never go up.

To balance things out in regards to time in why not limit reserve pay to 92% but they can’t never go higher than the first IPC level.  That would recognize that time in is not equal but the base pay is the same.

 

[mariomike]

I think in the PS anyone’s who is a term or casual employee gets the same pay rate as their indeterminate colleagues.  But...

I believe they are paid at the lowest step level and never go up.

Depends on the collective agreement.

We didn't have casual / part-time.

We did have temporary. Their wages did not go up.

They were made permanent, in order of seniority, before qualified ( perhaps even more qualified ) "off the street" applicants were considered.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Spit balling again with ideas.

I think in the PS anyone’s who is a term or casual employee gets the same pay rate as their indeterminate colleagues.  But...

I believe they are paid at the lowest step level and never go up.

To balance things out in regards to time in why not limit reserve pay to 92% but they can’t never go higher than the first IPC level.  That would recognize that time in is not equal but the base pay is the same.

And to play devils advocate- for those Retired Reg F people who join the reserves and 30+ years of service and experience into the unit...what then?

 

[Remius]

And to play devils advocate- for those Retired Reg F people who join the reserves and 30+ years of service and experience into the unit...what then?

Same a retired PS that retired with 30 years and take on term or casual work. 

Welcome to the militia.  Different TOS.

If Reg force types were willing to leave and take a 15% pay cut I doubt that an 8% pay cut and being at a lower IPC level at the same rank would be much of an issue.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[:'(
Helmets on.

I remember being on class B for a couple years. The income and structure was great (especially after tour) and in an Ops position I learned a hell of a lot and in turn did a hell of a lot for my unit. Really owe it to leadership who had my back so to speak.

I also remember the very non-subtle threats from other members of the CoC that if I didn't like how things were ran I was only on a year by year contract and can be easily replaced. AND, I can also be given the boot in 30 days and replaced. It was a constant threat.

From suggesting it wasn't fair to be "Class B forced" to attend weekend exercises as a section commander when I was in a full time ops job to refusing to black list members from employment who the chain of command wanted to send messages to. When my class B wasn't renewed I CTd to the regs and the CoC threatened to make me go NES and ruin my CT if I didn't "get on board" for the rest of my time there(quick call to the JAG and gaining reg force infantry unit RSM fixed that fast).

And that wasn't a case about me being the only one in step. Other class B peers I had from across the brigade had similar issues and stories. Don't like how you're treated? We'll replace you in a month.


Maybe it's different now but the class B system was pretty messed up a few years ago. Whether mbrs make 85% or 92% or 100% of their regular force counter parts I think the CAF, at least for the army, has to take a deeper look at how class Bs are set up and run.

And yea a pay raise is always awesome for the troops and instructors for summer taskings or even the year or 3 year contracts but I think all things considered it's all the class Bs in brigade headquarters that are benefiting the most from this. Maybe their manning and bloat needs to get looked at too.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Spit balling again with ideas.

I think in the PS anyone’s who is a term or casual employee gets the same pay rate as their indeterminate colleagues.  But...

I believe they are paid at the lowest step level and never go up.

To balance things out in regards to time in why not limit reserve pay to 92% but they can’t never go higher than the first IPC level.  That would recognize that time in is not equal but the base pay is the same.

This bases the solution comparing it to "PS like work";  there is substantially different realities within a Res and Reg Force TOS.  The TOS differences and experience levels are really what the focus should be on, not just experience levels.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

[:'(
Helmets on.

I remember being on class B for a couple years. The income and structure was great (especially after tour) and in an Ops position I learned a hell of a lot and in turn did a hell of a lot for my unit. Really owe it to leadership who had my back so to speak.

I also remember the very non-subtle threats from other members of the CoC that if I didn't like how things were ran I was only on a year by year contract and can be easily replaced. AND, I can also be given the boot in 30 days and replaced. It was a constant threat.

From suggesting it wasn't fair to be "Class B forced" to attend weekend exercises as a section commander when I was in a full time ops job to refusing to black list members from employment who the chain of command wanted to send messages to. When my class B wasn't renewed I CTd to the regs and the CoC threatened to make me go NES and ruin my CT if I didn't "get on board" for the rest of my time there(quick call to the JAG and gaining reg force infantry unit RSM fixed that fast).

And that wasn't a case about me being the only one in step. Other class B peers I had from across the brigade had similar issues and stories. Don't like how you're treated? We'll replace you in a month.


Maybe it's different now but the class B system was pretty messed up a few years ago. Whether mbrs make 85% or 92% or 100% of their regular force counter parts I think the CAF, at least for the army, has to take a deeper look at how class Bs are set up and run.

And yea a pay raise is always awesome for the troops and instructors for summer taskings or even the year or 3 year contracts but I think all things considered it's all the class Bs in brigade headquarters that are benefiting the most from this. Maybe their manning and bloat needs to get looked at too.

Great points;  I was a CBG HQ Cl B (annotated A) type;  my position was a hard position within (as it was called then) the ARE (Army Res Establishment).  There were some folks at the HQ who'd been on B(a) for over a decade in the same job.  Not so much at the HQ, but at the units if you were a unit fulltime B type, yup you were expected to attend wknds ex's with no CTOs (as they were called then) to compensate and you'd better believe you were going somewhere to instruct/fill a staff position in the Area or even "anywhere in Canada". 

Our HQ COS (Reg Frce Cbt Arms LCol..also the HQ CO) got wind of what was going on...the Bde Comd issued direction saying "knock it off!" and...not long after it all went back the way it was.

Know what though?  I never had to worry about deploying outside our borders on XX hours of X days notice back then.  I made less money, sure, but it was also a lot easier on my life and family back then too.

 

[Monsoon]

Know what though?  I never had to worry about deploying outside our borders on XX hours of X days notice back then.  I made less money, sure, but it was also a lot easier on my life and family back then too.

Okay, you've mentioned it enough times that I'm now genuinely curious: why is it that you regard tasks outside Canada as an unusual liability? You've acknowledged that the risk and hardship are subject to other allowances, so I gather it's the generally life-disrupting nature of the taskings? Well I've got news for you - a feature of class B life at a unit or HQ is having had to spend three months of every summer (i.e. when you'd rather be doing something with your kids) living in the huts at Meaford or Valcartier, or having to go to some remote part of the country for a long weekend or a few weeks on a "take it or leave it" basis and short notice. Frankly, if I had to unexpectedly spend twelve weeks in rough accommodations at a inconvenient time for my family, I'd rather do it in Eastern Europe.

At the same time, the use case you've described ("deploying outside our borders on XX hours of X days notice") is typically only a feature of a handful of high-readiness units (typically with their own unit or environmental allowances), and not of, say the third of the CAF that works in the CMP organization. Is it possible that you're generalizing your specific experience to all RegF folks?

 

[Haggis]

[:'(
Helmets on.

I, too, spent a few years in the unit Class B "slave trade".  I was Ops WO (FTUC position) and HQ SM (Class A position).  I was tasked away each summer (one year from end April to Labour Day) to support RST, ARC and NRC.  Obviously, no leave was granted during that "critical" summer period.  Trying to take leave over the fall/winter training period when unit or bde exercises were planned  was often met with "you're on leave from your Class B weekday job, not your Class A weekend job.  I expect to see you out on exercise." Sometimes that came from the unit and sometimes from Bde.

On the other side of the coin, before I retired in December, I was a Class A Ops O for almost 3 years.  My Ops and HQ FTUC were tasked away from early April to late August. This left me and the Class A Adjt stickhandling RFIs for the entire unit which really throws a wrench into your summer as the "returns for XXX are due ASAP" and "regret short notice" messages don't stop during RST because the Bde and Div HQ staffs are still at their desks. As a Class A shift worker who had a CAF laptop at home I occasionally had revenge on the HQ staff by responding to their "time sensitive" e-mails between 0100 - 0400, thus setting off their Blackberies in the middle of the night.  ;D

I made a point of ensuring my Ops team got their summer leave passes in to me for the CO to sign long before tasking season started.  This was quite easy as the Bde and Div were usually very last minute in releasing tasking briques for the summer.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Okay, you've mentioned it enough times that I'm now genuinely curious: why is it that you regard tasks outside Canada as an unusual liability? You've acknowledged that the risk and hardship are subject to other allowances, so I gather it's the generally life-disrupting nature of the taskings?

I mention it because there isn't a Res Cl A or B member who can be told "you're going to Country A for Time B on Deployment Y" on any given day at work.  It isn't part of the Res TOS - it is part of every Reg TOS.  While not everyone will be deployed, everyone can be and is expected to be deployable.  That is the difference and why I mention it.  Every Reg force person is expected to be deployable...no Res force person is expected (realistically) to deploy. 

Well I've got news for you - a feature of class B life at a unit or HQ is having had to spend three months of every summer (i.e. when you'd rather be doing something with your kids) living in the huts at Meaford or Valcartier, or having to go to some remote part of the country for a long weekend or a few weeks on a "take it or leave it" basis and short notice. Frankly, if I had to unexpectedly spend twelve weeks in rough accommodations at a inconvenient time for my family, I'd rather do it in Eastern Europe.

I've done the class B gig, I understand it BUT...Cl B is not supposed to be a career.  3 months in the summer....with the option to make it home on, at least, long weekends isn't so bad is it?

At the same time, the use case you've described ("deploying outside our borders on XX hours of X days notice") is typically only a feature of a handful of high-readiness units (typically with their own unit or environmental allowances), and not of, say the third of the CAF that works in the CMP organization. Is it possible that you're generalizing your specific experience to all RegF folks?

It is an expectation for anyone posted to any operational unit, but it can happen to any reg force member (who isn't say, medically restricted) on any given day they walk into work.  It is a reality for high ready units and sub-units.  I think the Ready Duty ships are an example when the SHTF down in the Caribbean a few years ago (earthquakes, etc). 

I'm trying to draw attention to the expectation aspect thru Reg Force TOS vice Res TOS.  I understand not all people live that reality; this is true within the fleet I am posted to know, so I understand not everyone lives the way I and the crews I've been on the past 4 years.  There is the expectation though, that anyone can be deployed and that can happen on any given day you walk thru the breezeway.

The difference I am (maybe poorly) trying to draw attention to is the different expectation the GoC has from the avg Reg and Res force member.