• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Legitimacy of War

Long in the tooth

Full Member
Inactive
Reaction score
0
Points
210
Ed Morgan is a professor of international law at theUniversity of Toronto. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

International law's muddy waters

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

'To me it's impossible," said the lawyer for Jeremy Hinzman, the disappointed refugee claimant and U.S. Army paratrooper. "A war has to be either legal or illegal." But when it comes to clarity and a bright line between right and wrong, international law is always ready to disappoint.

Last week a Canadian adjudicator ruled that the legality or illegality of the conflict in Iraq cannot be raised in a refugee claim by a U.S. soldier who fled north in objection to the war. Perplexing as it may be to those who, like the soldier's lawyer, "find it hard to get [their] head around," it's just as well the adjudicator declined the invitation to wade through international law's muck. Refugee decisions should be based on whether the claimant faces a real fear of persecution on ethnic, religious, gender, or political grounds, and not on whether international law can provide a straight "legal" answer.

There is a number of ways to analyze the legal status of the war in Iraq. While article 2(4) of the UN Charter makes a blanket statement outlawing the use of armed force except as authorized by the Security Council, it is qualified by several factors built into the Charter itself. States continue to enjoy a right to self-defence, they can pursue regional actions with more narrowly based coalitions than those created by the Security Council and, under newly emerging law, can engage in armed intervention on a humanitarian basis where the target regime reaches intolerable levels of abuse.

During the past two years of debate over Iraq, the United States has argued that the Saddam Hussein regime acted illegally in breaching the 1991 Security Council resolutions that accompanied the liberation of Kuwait by UN forces, and that further military action against Iraq was pre-authorized. In addition, it has successively invoked each of the relevant exceptions to the article 2(4) ban on non-Security Council authorized force. As is so often the case with international legal matters, there has been no forum in which to satisfactorily accept or reject any of these claims.

Even if there were a decent forum, it is impossible to tell how any given argument about the use of force would come out today. Post-Cold War precedents -- Kuwait (Security Council action), Rwanda (forced regime change in absence of UN action), Kosovo (non-Security Council sanctioned regional action), Afghanistan (multilateral action in defence against terrorism), Congo (multiple regional actions intervening in civil war) and Ivory Coast (humanitarian intervention) -- point in different directions at once.

Indeed, it has long been recognized that article 2(4) and its attendant Charter rules are so open to question that the prohibition on force has itself been riddled with legal bullets and buried in legal argument. Even if that is an exaggeration by scholars seeking a headline in an otherwise turgid field, it is certainly the case that the waters of international law and the UN Charter are muddy. If a refugee adjudicator were to wade into them it is anyone's guess where, or whether, he would come out.

As for the Iraq war, the Security Council never specifically authorized it, nor has it specifically condemned it. In that, it is like the Kosovo and Afghanistan campaigns before it, although unlike those campaigns the 22 Arab Group states and the 115 Non-Aligned Movement states have declared the Iraq campaign to be a violation of international law. In the Security Council, the United States and the United Kingdom viewed Resolution 1441 of November 2002, which threatened "serious consequences" against Iraq, as implicitly authorizing the war, while Russia and China both declared the war to be a violation of the resolution and of the law. France, although widely perceived as aggressively opposing the U.S. administration and its long-arm-defence policy, left open the possibility of ex post facto approval of the war (such as it achieved for its own subsequent military intervention in Ivory Coast); its post-war assessment was that it "regretted that military action had begun without Council authorization."

Contemporary international law, it turns out, is a complicated business. Asking an adjudicator whether the Iraq war is illegal is a bit like asking whether O.J. is a murderer. It may look that way to many people, but the state criminal court said otherwise, while the federal court said that he violated the victims' civil rights. In both cases, the debates have made for good television and muddled legality.

No wonder it's hard for a lawyer to wrap his head around the issues. When it comes to international law, with its structural inability to divorce itself from politics and to clearly articulate right and wrong, who could?
 
No matter how War is addressed it is amoral.
We are the only beast on this Earth that kills it's own!!!
 
There are many mammals that kill thier own. Dolphins, lions, various primates to name a few.
 
Goober said:
There are many mammals that kill thier own. Dolphins, lions, various primates to name a few.
I should be more specific: As in War,mass killing.
 
Spr.Earl said:
I should be more specific: As in War,mass killing.

Like when two Lion Prides meet and the males fight to death or debilitating injury and the ones that survive on the losing side are left to die of starvation?  Sounds like war to me (although rather more babaric than the Geneva Convention would allow).
 
Right, the lions do it so we're in the clear.

Comments on the article..
 
Pretty the article pretty well muddied already muddy waters.  :)

As Alistair Cooke said of the US Constitution and the Old Testament:
"(Either) can be used to gouge out an eye or forgive an enemy."

It's tempting to suggest that the UN should have the final say in these matters, but given the current organization of that body, few nations would willingly give their future well-being into the hands of Kofi and company.

Various solutions occur to me, but each requires some surrender of sovereignty.  I don't see that happening any time soon -- nor should it, until a form of representative government is the norm for all nations.

More mud in the pond, eh?

Sorry,
Jim
 
I always thought the victor was the one in the legal right...  ;)

It interesting to see both sides debate whether they are in the legal right or not, but using the UN charter doesn't make much sense to me.  I mean, if it's not legally binding, it holds no more strength than the Kyoto Accords.  Sure, the Americans/Canadians/Japanese/insert-your-country-here signed it, but with no one to enforce it, nothing will happen.  It's the same in regards to the legality of the wars...  Laws not enforced are laws no longer.  If there is no one around to enforce the laws, then they cease being laws, don't they?  Hmmm... MMI?

Er, as for the lions, that's not war.  That's euthanasia.  Killing the weak/wounded is part of mammal-nature, if you will, but as Che said, perhaps we can have that debate in another Topic, if you'd care to start it.  :)

T
 
International law is one of those things that you can't enforce so it requires people to act with honor and own up to mistakes....

Perhaps it's asking a bit too much ?
 
I think we are.  The nations involved are more than willing to follow the "laws" of the UN, provided they agree with them.  When they don't agree, they seem to go their own way.  In spirit, it's a wonderful thing, but in practicality, I don't think it's universally functional.

T
 
The UN is flawed because it is based on shared principles....with countries that don't share principles.  Instead of making people earn their membership to the UN, they chose to be inclusive.  So you get countries like China and the Soviet Union, some of the worst human rights abusers out there, as founding members....and you wonder that it is a corrupt, self-serving organization that seems incapable of doing anything useful?

I'm not really sure where International Law begins and the UN ends, but if you're going to have a law, you need to have policemen.  Moral suasion only works as long as you share morals with the ones you wish to "suade"  (Hey, if dissuade is a word, so is suade, OK?).  If all you want to do is talk about human rights with the people who are guilty of the worst transgressions, you can at most slow down the pace of the killing while they pause to drink tea and talk with you about your quaint ideas of human rights.

However, since they have a club of inclusion, everyone gets a vote on the laws, resolutions and principles of the organization...with predictable results.  Imagine, a room with 27 rapists, one female with limited self-defense potential, and 1 big guy named Bubba.  She's Bubba's girlfriend (or sister), and the 27 leave her alone, cuz Bubba will stomp anyone who touches her.  Suppose that Bubba starts apologizing for his size which is physically intimidating to the other inmates, and promises to behave in a "less-agressive" manner, since it makes the 27 feel bad and or frightened.  Then, convinced everybody loves him and won't do anything immoral because, after all, they're friends, right?  Bubba decides to step away for a few days to check on something he left at home.  Then the remaining people have a vote.  The vote is 25-1 with 2 abstentions...the two abstainees hands were otherwise occupied...Now, if they have a vote on what they get to do with the fine lady, and it's all decided democratic-like, without regard for principles like human rights, what exactly do you think is gonna happen?

The US is that Bubba, and the minority of civilized Western countries.  The 27 rapists are every human-rights abusing nation or group that is part of the UN that doesn't actually belong there.  I mean, c'mon, Libya on the human rights council?  The female with limited self defense capability is every individual, minority group or small country that gets squashed by majority vote of people who don't actually support the concept of human rights.

Worst part of it all is that sometimes, they let another defenseless person into the room, and the aforementioned "female" often starts clamouring as loudly as the rest of them that they exploit the newcomer...mob mentality on the international scale.

Meanwhile, Bubba sits on the sidelines trying to talk people out of being slimebags, trying to give good reasons to people who don't respect reason, and trying to be loved.  What he should be doing is standing up for what is right, and refusing to get involved with mobs--either by not entering that particular room in the first place, or by being damn choosy about who he lets in.

I don't think anyone should be offended by this particular example...the "people" and genders involved are archetypes.  You don't have to like the stereotypes, but they're useful for making examples.


 
Che said:
Right, the lions do it so we're in the clear.

Comments on the article..

It was actually a point about asserting arbitrary "facts" (of the natural world or otherwise) as "proof" of moral clarity and superiority, which was a comment on the article, the subsequent comment and the relative moralities of war in general.
 
The UN is such a noble and wonderfull organization...Wait, I gotta puke after saying that. The UN in terms of enforcing mandates and security is a joke and it should be disbanded.
As mentioned above, too many countires that can't even adhere to basic human rights have a say when they should not...

Like or not, there are bad people in the world and yes, they may have to be forced to step down and respect international human rights..
No, I am not refering to Bush either...
 
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0738203157/qid=1101868686/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-5532402-6336758?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Actually, we are not the only species that commits acts of war upon ourselves.  Most primates frequently group togeather in groups to prey on other groups over territory and females (mating).  The author of the book above, Ghiglieri, observed chimps committing warfare to such an extreme that it would be called genocide if it was witnessed amongst human societies.

When you peel all the fancy technology and ideas behind war away, it really isn't that complicated.  The lawyer above tries to dress things up in his paradigm of human relations (legal or non-legal) but falls on his face - war (conflict between human groups) is such a vast and varied activity that it simply cannot be put into pretty, Westphalian "legal" and "non-legal" boxes.

For a better grasp on the morality of the Iraq War, see Thucydides "The Melian Dialogue", he's got about 2,400 years on Mr. Law Professor.
 
Infanteer said:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0738203157/qid=1101868686/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-5532402-6336758?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Actually, we are not the only species that commits acts of war upon ourselves.   Most primates frequently group togeather in groups to prey on other groups over territory and females (mating).   The author of the book above, Ghiglieri, observed chimps committing warfare to such an extreme that it would be called genocide if it was witnessed amongst human societies.

I believe it would be more apt to consider that we are the only species capable of destroying its own completely (and everything else, for that matter).
 
Gunnar said:
The UN is flawed

I don't think anyone should be offended by this particular example...the "people" and genders involved are archetypes.   You don't have to like the stereotypes, but they're useful for making examples.

The UN has been Explained and Described in many ways since its conception.
Your description however, not only brings a smile to the reader, but could not be any more to the point and specific.
In my humble opinion, WELL DONE.
 
yeah gunner i like your post as well,although im gettin the itch to chew some tabbaco and go clean my 12 gage.seriously how long does anybody think the war on terrisom will go on,longer than vietnam.is iran or libya next,how long can the us keep fighting with there econamy getting weak?anybody got any theories???
 
The UN is a great talking shop and should continue as a talking shop.  There is always need for neutral ground for parties in dispute to come together to hammer out there differences.

However the UN should never be confused with a court. Courts, in functioning democracies, rely on the judge and jury to have been vetted and considered as reasonable, moral individuals that are above the fray and not beholden to any parties.  Given that it is up to courts to decide if laws have been broken and the UN can't be a court then the UN can't pronounce on legality.

Conversely the UN might pass muster as a parliament where factional representatives acting on behalf of vested interests (their constituents) get together to hammer out acceptable compromises and pronounce the solution as law.  Then the law goes to the court for adjudication.

However most of the bodies warming seats at the UN are acting on behalf of no interests but their own and thus can't properly come to a compromise that would be acceptable to their constituents.  They have less moral authority than our Canadian Senators.

If the members were truly representative of their constituents then the UN might have the moral authority to proclaim laws.

As it stands it should neither proclaim law nor decide on legality.

It should remain what it does best - supply a forum for dispute.

Maybe the problem is the name "United Nations" - it suggests an organization with purpose, like the United States, United Kingdom, United Arab Emirates, United Technologies.  Maybe it should just be called the "Forum of Nations".

Cheers.

 
Kirkhill said:
Maybe the problem is the name "United Nations" - it suggests an organization with purpose, like the United States, United Kingdom, United Arab Emirates, United Technologies.   Maybe it should just be called the "Forum of Nations".

Hmmm ... amost sounds like "League of Nations" ... maybe the kit shop still has some tshirts ... (chuckle!)
 
Back
Top