Leave - Recall and Other Issues [MERGED]

[Eye In The Sky]

Further to this, COs are well within their perogative to amplify exisiting regulations and orders through RO, SOs, and SOPs. If the CO of a unit says that any personnel going out of area (such as flying all the way to Toronto from Calgary on a weekend) are required to obtain permission from their chain of command fill out a leave pass, then that is a legal order and you can suffer the consequences if you choose to ignore it.

But it's already covered in a published MANUAL approved by the CMP, who is also the development/approving authority for leave for the entire CAF.  That MANUAL  states:

2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:
•when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
•when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
•when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis. 

Flying from Toronto to Calgary isn't covered in the "except when" part, it is clearly stated a CF-100 is not required on weekends, or designated holidays.  Policy developed/approved by CMP.  Sounds pretty solid to me.

Hierarchy of orders.  So unless you can show me the reference that states clearly a CO has the authority to change the official policy approved by the CMP, I don't see much credibility to the statement "COs can do what they want/ignore higher CAF regulations and policy".  In this instance, the Leave Manual appears quite concise, and clear. 

My COs Sqn orders on leave follow the spirit, intent and policy of the CF Leave Manual.  I guess my CO pays heed to things like this...

4.02 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF OFFICERS

(1) An officer shall:
a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce:
i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act,
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the officer's duties;

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Regulations such as QR&Os can be expanded on by the C of C as long as it does not take away entitlements so if your boss says the policy for your section is leave passes will be submitted there is no issue there.

I agree with COs have the authority to a degree but it is not an all encompassing, blanket authority to change 'whatever they want despite higher policy'.  I usually laugh at people who say things like "I don't care what "insert policy/ref" says, I am telling you...".  Their ignorance is not my problem.  A quick read of the General Responsibility stuff in the QR & O Vol I is a good PD starting point.

Thankfully, I am in a unit who's CO follows the CMP direction WRT to Leave.

 

[Good2Golf]

I look forward to dinosaur heads exploding when leave becomes an electronic transaction with no paper, just an automated email to a supervisor saying "Bloggins has requested leave.  Click here to approve, here to reject."

I see what you did there.

I can click for some of my team, but C1A1 CF100 for the others, no matter the source generator (handraulic, .pdf, MM, small chimpanzee with a typewriter, etc...)

:2c:

G2G

 

[MedCorps]

I agree with COs have the authority to a degree but it is not an all encompassing, blanket authority to change 'whatever they want despite higher policy'.  I usually laugh at people who say things like "I don't care what "insert policy/ref" says, I am telling you...".  Their ignorance is not my problem.  A quick read of the General Responsibility stuff in the QR & O Vol I is a good PD starting point.

Interesting.  When I did my command course to become a CO it was noted that CO's had the authority, right, privilege and responsibility to issue orders, direction, unit policy, protocols or procedures as long as they are not manifestly unlawful, unethical or immoral. You may also want to look at the CDS direction to new COs as I think it has something on this topic.

This included the tightening of existing policies and orders in order to ensure that my unit met it's mandate as tasked by the formation commander. 

MC

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Did it also say "anytime, anything, regardless of a higher instruction.  You do what you damn well want.  Let 'er pound!"  ;D

FWIW, this website contains details of many instances where COs have erred in their decision making and application of policy in those decisions.  Shall I pull some specific cases out for review or can we agree that even COs make mistakes and overstep this 'range of freedom' idea WRT due consideration of CAF policy? 

From the Leave Manual:

Application 

Unless otherwise indicated, this manual applies to all members of the Canadian Forces (CF).

Approval Authority

The Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual is issued under the authority of the Chief Military Personnel (CMP).

1.1.08 Delegate Authority

Where an authority is specifically identified in the CFLPM, there can be no delegation of authority to subordinate officers otherwise specified.


Ok.  Hmmmm.

Not seeing anything in 2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays about any delegation from the CMP (approving authority of the policy) to subordinate officers. 

I see this becoming a fast moving  :trainwreck:;  I've made my stance and pointed to policy from the CMP.  I'll continue to not submit leave passes on weekend and go out of province or where ever, IAW the CMP direction in the Leave Manual. 

 

[Eye In The Sky]

You'd also get off an AWOL charge for the leave pass thing as you were not absent without leave, as the leave policy says you don't need it. A smarter RSM would likely recommend Disobedience of a lawful command, if he didn't just give you extras knowing you were deliberately challenging the rules. Its all how the charge is written.

And would a ULA/JAG reviewing the charge agree WRT the particulars, when they went to the CMP authorized policy that 'applies to all CAF members'?

The REAL point shouldn't be how a charge should be written up to hang a mbr, it SHOULD be 'are all units be administered IAW CAF policy'.  The CAF Leave Policy Manual states you do not...NOT...need a leave pass for weekend leave inside of Canada (or words to that effect).

Full stop.  There should be no question on the spirit, intent OR wording.  But for ease and clarity....

2.1.04 Weekends and Holidays

Weekends and Holidays are included on Form CF 100 when they form part of a leave period in conjunction with other types of leave that are reckoned in working days. A CF 100 is not required for a member proceeding exclusively on weekends and/or designated or other holidays, except when:

•when travelling to a foreign country, or to a country other than the one where the member is employed;
•when travel benefits are requested (eg. LTA); or
•when required for ration accounting purposes for members authorized to draw rations on a continuous basis. 

That is the CAF policy.  All units need to do is follow it, not reinvent it or bastardize it.

 

[dapaterson]

That is the CAF policy.  All units need to do is follow it, not reinvent it or bastardize it.

If people started doing that, wouldn't civilisation collapse?

What's next, expecting units, formations and commands to prepare PERs IAW CFPAS direction?

 

[blackberet17]

If people started doing that, wouldn't civilisation collapse?

What's next, expecting units, formations and commands to prepare PERs IAW CFPAS direction?

I sense another derail of the original topic coming...  >

 

[armyvern]

The leave pass issue;  there are already regulations, laid out.  No leave pass required.  If I am a WO, I can't just decide that hey, fuck it I am going to make my MCpls and below fill em out and charge them if they don't.  If the CMP says "you don't need a weekend leave pass", can a lowly CO order contrary?

...

LOL; the rules also say that Commanders and Commanding Officers are required to maintain their nominal rolls as "up to date" and that CAF personnel are subject to recall 24/7 - even when on leave.

Don't want to fill out that leave pass for weekend leave?  IE: Don't want to waste the 10 seconds it takes because "some shitty leader is making up rules about leave passes" (even though most say anything more than 100/200kms away from base until requirement to fill one in kicks in - that "requirement being a lawful order of course) ...

Then by all means, DON'T.  Don't even fill one in if you are going "anywhere in Canada" as per the manual.

BUT, just remember that you ARE subject to recall and that you ARE AWOL if you are not returned to base within the number of hours said CO or Commander gives you to get there (usually 2 hours and ergo the 200km mark for leave passes).  And, you bear all the costs of cancellations/return flights from wherever at your OWN expense as you did not have a leave pass to cover you.

This whining fucking kills me:  This is your bosses looking after you and trying to make sure your asses are covered for expenses/recalls etc ... yet bitching about it.  Great leadership there I tell you.




WHY is this all still in this thread???

 

[Pusser]

BUT, just remember that you ARE subject to recall and that you ARE AWOL if you are not returned to base within the number of hours said CO or Commander gives you to get there (usually 2 hours and ergo the 200km mark for leave passes).  And, you bear all the costs of cancellations/return flights from wherever at your OWN expense as you did not have a leave pass to cover you.

Refs:  QR&O 16.01
CBI 209.54

Not true.  Reimbursement of expenses for recall from leave simply requires that the member be on leave (weekend leave counts).  There is no requirement for a signed leave pass in order to claim expenses resulting from being recalled on a weekend.  If a member wants to go from Halifax to Vancouver for the weekend and the CO decides that he needs him back before Monday morning, then the unit has to pay.

Now, if the member does this when his unit is on x number of hours notice to move and he/she cannot make it back within that timeframe, the situation changes significantly.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

I got an interesting one this week. I have volunteered to work a course in Edmonton next month. I coach a roller derby team in Canmore AB, four hours away. On thursday night I want to drive down after work, coach and return back.

It has been suggested that the drive there and back exceeds X hours and that I shouldn't be doing it as the CAF doesn't allow for more than X hours of driving at a time.

Of course, once you dismiss me from work, I am "off" and can do what I want, no? Not a weekend but a weeknight. As long as I am at work on time the next day, I'm on my own time.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Franko]

I got an interesting one this week. I have volunteered to work a course in Edmonton next month. I coach a roller derby team in Canmore AB, four hours away. On thursday night I want to drive down after work, coach and return back.

It has been suggested that the drive there and back exceeds X hours and that I shouldn't be doing it as the CAF doesn't allow for more than X hours of driving at a time.

Of course, once you dismiss me from work, I am "off" and can do what I want, no? Not a weekend but a weeknight. As long as I am at work on time the next day, I'm on my own time.

Correct me if I am wrong.

You're correct. You get into an accident, it's all on you.

Regards

 

[SupersonicMax]

You're correct. You get into an accident, it's all on you.

Regards

What do you mean "on you"?

 

[Franko]

What do you mean "on you"?

What isn't clear to you? The "on" or the "you"?

He's on his own time. If he wishes to drive when he's tired and possibly get into an accident, it's his own doing. Besides, it's within the province. No leave pass required.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Obviously no, it's not clear to me.

What is on you, if you get into an accident?  Medical fees?

 

[QV]

This is where the "you're not covered" or "you will lose your pension" threat comes I assume. 

 

[kratz]

I agree,

Nerf herder's post was far too general to be a medical authority for the average reader.

I am not an authority, but I am in contact with people who are working their way through the system.
Injury on or off duty for RegF and long term PRes does not rely on a leave pass.

example 1: Shovel your PMQ driveway after hours, slip and fall. Tailbone injury. VAC offers limited options
example 2: Shovel ??? in a duty area, slip and fall. Tailbone injury. VAC offers gold level services

 

[dapaterson]

On the other hand, eight hours driving (round trip) plus a couple hours training means you will be tired and less able to deliver the Army training you are paid to do. If your weekly road trips impact your ability to do your job, expect to have restrictions introduced by your chain of command.

 

[Bzzliteyr]

Interesting.  But wouldn't that be equal to ordering someone not to do something on their time off?

Don't go play pick up hockey because you could possibly hurt yourself and it might impact your job.

Don't drink Red Bull after hours as you could have a heart attack and it would impact your job.

Etcetera, etcetera.

We head down a slippery slope doing that.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

On the other hand, eight hours driving (round trip) plus a couple hours training means you will be tired and less able to deliver the Army training you are paid to do. If your weekly road trips impact your ability to do your job, expect to have restrictions introduced by your chain of command.

That's a great example to use with a Crmn;  don't drive for 8 hours and do a few hours training as it make you tired and less able to do what the army pays you to do. 

;D