Leave Policy – Christmas / Holidays [Merged]

[ballz]

You should have more than one leave pass - can't be on leave and on duty the same day. As for the excuse they gave you of too much work for the admin staff - $%#^ them.

That's exactly what came to my mind.... You shouldn't be losing an annual for a day that you are not on leave, even if that means the clerks have to do their job and change the leave pass to two leave passes. What a ridiculous reason to give to someone for not making things right.

 

[Pat in Halifax]

The issue here is not about being on leave and duty-most departments will get you a day in lieu. The issue is if injured while on duty...and on leave...Likely only the supervisor's head will roll but you never know. I know this is done but it really shouldn't be. Some pinhead somewhere will have to rewrite the CF 100 and it will be 7 pages (sort of like the new NOK) because someone was too f***ing lazy to take an extra 30 seconds.
Again, I hope you can work this out.
Let us know how you make out by the way.

 

[aesop081]

2 I thought it was mandatory for my unit to allow me to go to my next of kin for the leave period, am I wrong?

You are indeed wrong.

5 Do units have to have ‘block leave’ at Christmas?

No, they do not.

 

[Strike]

To the OP -- Not that I'm encouraging you to stir the pot, but if you're that worried about losing a day of leave, then submit a cancelation of leave request along with two new leave passes around the date you are on duty.

Of course, this will only be required should you not be able to change your duty with someone else.

 

[Sub_Guy]

Am I missing something here?  During my time spent in the Navy, Christmas and New Years were two separate leave periods.  Therefore if you were on leave during Christmas, you could expect to stand 3 or four duty watches during the New Years leave time frame or opposite for those who took New Years leave. 

Has the RCN stopped doing this?

 

[Stoker]

Am I missing something here?  During my time spent in the Navy, Christmas and New Years were two separate leave periods.  Therefore if you were on leave during Christmas, you could expect to stand 3 or four duty watches during the New Years leave time frame or opposite for those who took New Years leave. 

Has the RCN stopped doing this?

Yes they still are. However MARLANT encourages all commands to allow the max amount of leave to be taken. Its up to the mbr to arrange a relief from leave if they can, usually either Christmas or new years is taken. If a mbr has a NOK away a supervisor should try and arrange the leave IF possible around the dates the mbr put in for.

 

[meni0n]

So what happens if he doesn't show up for his duty? Charged for not being on duty while on leave?

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Absent from place of duty (because it is annotated on the leave pass). As I said earlier, the Navy has their own way of doing some things and trust me when I say, there is a reason. I have a (good) feeling this will be resolved.
Strike-Good suggestion but he is going to Winterpeg-a bit of a haul to come back for a duty watch. (Though I did it once from Cornwall---I was tired.)

 

[Halifax Tar]

The deal is the Reg PO puts out the duty schedule. Thats gospel. If you need a duty watch changed regardless of the time of year or if you have or were putting in a leave pass during period its the sailors responsibility either switch it off with another equally qualified member or break up the leave pass. Usually, and I use that word gingerly, the Reg PO will release the Xmas/NY duty watch schedule quite far in advance to the members can have lots of heads up in order to make switches.

BE ADVISED there is a proper form you can get from the coxswain's office to switch duty watches.

I myself have had to deal with this while I was on the east coast but my NOK, at the time, was in Kingston. It does suck but back then the older married killicks stepped in and took the xmas duty watches so us single members could get to go home and see our families over the holidays.

 

[MedCorps]

So what happens if he doesn't show up for his duty? Charged for not being on duty while on leave?

This is a good question. 

So I would see it playing out like this.  Does not show up for duty.  Charge occurs. Goes to a trial.

Why did you not show up for your duty on XX date?

Accused: Sir, I was on leave. I have a valid and signed CF-100 for the period I was to be on watch. I was XXX km away in another province and I was not recalled from leave in accordance with QR&O 16.01.

Did you know that you had military duties imposed upon you during the leave period.

Accused: Yes, sir it was annotated on my CF-100.

The question that will have to be resolved will be:

Does the annotation on the remarks column on the CF-100 subject a member on leave to serve while on leave?
--> if I was sitting the trial I would say no, you cannot subject someone on leave to service using the remarks box on the leave pass. 

Was there a requirement of the CoC to issue leave passes in such a manner to ensure that the member was clearly on duty and not leave?
--> I would say yes.

Was there a requirement for the member to ensure that this matter was resolved prior to going on leave?
--> I would say yes.  In fact, if they failed to do so, although you might not have been absent from your duties, you may have been negligent in the performance of your duties to ensure that the watch was not left unmanned.

I have never sat (or seen) a trial like this... just working through the process in the most cursory of manners. 

It could get messy and will most likely end poorly for you inside or outside of the disciplinary process. Especially inside of the summary trial process.

MC

 

[MedCorps]

The deal is the Reg PO puts out the duty schedule. Thats gospel. If you need a duty watch changed regardless of the time of year or if you have or were putting in a leave pass during period its the sailors responsibility either switch it off with another equally qualified member or break up the leave pass.

I would argue that the Reg PO's duty schedule is not gospel, but rather the CO's signature on the CF-100 takes presidence over anything (or everything) that the Reg PO wants me to do.

I would suggest that the my CoC should not recommend or authorize me to proceed on A/L unless they have no duties for me to execute. I would also suggest that if there is a military requirement per QR&O 16.01 then they should withhold me from leave during that requirement. 

Playing devils advocate (somewhat).

MC

 

[Pat in Halifax]

Please let this play out. There is no need for this kind of thing. We are all on the same team. You are guessing at questions and at best speculating on answers. Unless there's a JAG lawyer on these forums, none of us knows the ins and outs. Lets do this without the lawyers (Especially the lower-deck lawyers). As well MedCorps, the HoD authorizes the leave(Navy way-we manage our own)...after clearing with the RegPO. Please, leave it alone.

It wont get messy.

 

[MedCorps]

The HoD is authorized to issue A/L by the CO IAW QR&O 16.14.  The CO was just used as I was unsure of who the CO had authorized to issue leave in this members unit.  If the HoD checks with the Reg PO to ensure that the member is not subject to duties and then authorizes A/L on behalf of the CO then the Reg PO should realize that member is not subject to duties under the authority of the HoD. The CF-100 is a powerful document and with the short amount of authorized A/L we get a year it needs to be protected accordingly.  On the other side of the fence, if you are not on A/L then you are subject to the demands of the service, weekend, holiday, 20 days in a row, or otherwise.

I agree that everyone is on the same team and that it will play out.  I was just answering the question.... what would happen if the member just did not show up for his watch. There is no lower-deck lawyer playing intended, it was just playing out the hypothetical.  Do I think that sailor Bloggins here should neglect his appointed duties, with our without a valid CF-100 in hand... categorically not.  It is good to think through both sides of the argument and look at the perspective from an external viewer who manages leave daily (I have never served with the RCN or provided medical support to the RCN. 

I have sat, as the Presiding Officer, on a number of summary trials for members who absented themselves.  The JAG is normally only involved, on the periphery, when the charge is being laid.  I have recalled members from leave, withheld leave for military reasons, and signed more leave passes then I care to try and count.

MC

 

[Navalsnpr]

The Canadian Forces Leave Policy Manual (A-PP-005-LVE/AG-001) is the CF reference for leave.

            http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dgcb-dgras/pd/lea-con/doc/cflpm-mprcfc-eng.pdf

Commanding Officers are instructed to and will provide guidance on the administration of leave through written direction, however CO's must ensure that operational commitments are maintained. In the case of HMC Ships, that includes duty watches. 

You need to read the link above and read all documentation (Routine Orders, Temporary Memorandum/Instructions etc) from your ship's CoC.

If you find something in either of these references that supports the questions you posed to this forum, I suggest you quickly hop on the keyboard at work and draft a memorandum to your CoC.. however I highly doubt you will find anything.

As for 'Block Leave'... that works for personnel in Force Generation Mode who are Posted or Attach Posted to a school on course. For those who are posted to operational units that are considered Force Employment, 'Block Leave' is unattainable.. especially on HMC Ships with duty watch requirements.

P.S. I'm in Halifax, my wife is in Ottawa and I'm duty on Xmas Eve so I'll wake up on Christmas day onboard. 

 

[armyvern]

Edited to remove my rant:

22 years since I've been with the Navy, and they still haven't sorted this issue out ...

Is it so difficult to put out a duty schedule in advance and have members submit leave passes after it's publication. Seems like such a simple fix.

:brickwall:

 

[Pat in Halifax]

If we could possibly drop this, I have been in touch with the individual.  I promise he wont get f***ed.
Vern, I respect you to the world's end, but this is the Navy...
I was a RegPO; It wasn't us, it's the grown ups....

 

[armyvern]

If we could possibly drop this, I have been in touch with the individual.  I promise he wont get f***ed.
Vern, I respect you to the world's end, but this is the Navy...
I was a RegPO; It wasn't us, it's the grown ups....

I understand it's the grown-ups; exactly why my UDI (as the CSM) would state: "charges not warranted". It isn't the members problem to sort out duty lists executed erroneously by his CoC after he has been authorized leave --- despite them trying to make him accountable to fix their mistakes by a catch-all statement in the remarks block of his leave pass****. It is the members responsibility to bring their error to their attention IF he is aware they have placed him on duty while he has already been authorized annual leave that covers that duty period; they then have 2 choices: amend his leave pass and split it into two so that he is not on leave during the duty date or find a replacement themselves to correct their error.

**** I'll point out that if they insist the "comments" on that leave pass are valid and enforceable, then absolutley valid too are the the start and end dates on that very same "authorized by the HoD" leave pass. They place him on duty AFTER that authorization = their mistake. He sneaks a leave pass through AFTER being placed on duty = his mistake. The fact that they actually include this comment in the remarks block tells me that they believe it's always the members problem to fix ... that's irritating when it's such a simple thing to publish your duty list PRIOR to submission of holiday leave passes. Other Units in this outfit have managed to successfully pull this off for decades now ...

 

[SupersonicMax]

amend his leave pass and split it into two so that he is not on leave during the duty date

And compensate him for any cost incurred by the amended leave pass.

 

[armyvern]

And compensate him for any cost incurred by the amended leave pass.

Certainly if mbr is single and had been authorized leave and was travelling to his NOK under LTA; then, they certainly would owe him compensation for any cancelled travel arrangements/costs. Their error (oversight in populating duty lists in this particular case) should never cost the member money.

 

[trigger324]

This can be sorted out so easily. See if you can find someone in your section/department who does the same job on the duty watch and who lives/is staying in the local area during the holidays and work out an agreement with him by trading off this duty watch for one or even two for after you get back into town. When I was in the Navy we did this all the time. I was a local guy who would occasionally do it for guys from out of town when an instance like this came up. There's got to somebody who will do this for you on your ship.