• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Law enforcement pushes for power to swab for DNA on arrest

Crantor said:
Like the gun registry, nothing to hide right? 

I would like to, but I can't argue that one..........................I'm a very "gun control guy" but I'm the first to tell others that gun owners got screwed and who can blame them for not wanting to cooperate. 

 
Okay- clearly nobody looked at my link about the types of offences that DNA is being sought for. No one is being swabbed for disturbing the peace. There is a specific series of offences- in the link above.

There is no authority to seize DNA outside of those offences.

Rather than this argument- because its seems backwards to me, as a guy who worked IN forensics. Specifically with DNA and fingerprints.

The conversation should be to remove the discretion on violent offences. If you are convicted of a crime that involves injury to another person you should have your DNA on the databank.

In my experience, the DNA databank backlog is DNA that was located at property crimes- when you get a hit it gives you a series of old break and enters.

When I went through the Canadian Police College for Forensics the numbers of crimes solved by the Crime Scene Index was incredibly low. Like I was shocked at the cost compared to the results. They defended it by saying as the amount of offenders with DNA on the databank goes up the better the results will be.

To my knowledge there hasn't been a dramatic increase. This is not because we dont have what the Chiefs are proposing- it is because of the cumbersome process of getting the DNA onto the databank in the first place along with the judges choosing to not order the DNA taken- by either discretion or omission.

These issues need to be addressed before we reinvent the wheel.

In my experience whenever an association of police chiefs recommends something I can be counted on to disagree.
 
At the risk of being inflammatory: the state, the government, including police and the national security apparatus, always has too much power, and the sovereign individual - the most important component of the nation state - always has too little. Information is power.

The state is constantly trying to intrude upon our fundamental rights - and I regard privacy as a fundamental right (see US, Warren & Brandeis, 1890) - and we should, as a mater of principle, be making access to information more and more and more difficult, even at the (very real) risk of making it easier for sociopathic serial killers, pedophiles and armed drug dealers to go about their awful business unmolested with less effective police interference.

I, personally, as a long time, dues paying Conservative Party member, think the "law and order" planks of the party's platform are ill considered and actually pose a real, measurable threat to liberty. I understand we, the CPC, are appealing to a certain segment of society and I understand that we need to keep them "onside." But I opposed mandatory minimum sentences - I think we lock up far too many people for far too long, the (most? just some?) data, from other countries, seems to support me - and I oppose this, too.

I agree that when one is convicted of certain offences - Container explained that there are differences between them - one loses many rights, and I have no problem with (almost) anything Bruce et al do to them. I also oppose convicts being allowed to vote, by the way (it just proves that the Charter was sloppily drafted, ALL written constitutions are deeply flawed that way). But until one is convicted one is innocent and the police ought to be very limited in what they can do to us.

More government is always worse government.
 
Edward,...............IMO, you're still missing the point.

This changes nothing except makes it more foolproof to identify people...............including innocents who just want to carry on.

Not months of someone being suspected because an eyewitness seemed to recall a thirsty looking older gentleman with grey hair, glasses and a cane speeding towards an establishment on the corner of Bay and Albert about the time of the incident. :-*

One swab,...boom,....off ya' go....
 
Container said:
Okay- clearly nobody looked at my link about the types of offences that DNA is being sought for. No one is being swabbed for disturbing the peace. There is a specific series of offences- in the link above.

There is no authority to seize DNA outside of those offences.

Rather than this argument- because its seems backwards to me, as a guy who worked IN forensics. Specifically with DNA and fingerprints.

The conversation should be to remove the discretion on violent offences. If you are convicted of a crime that involves injury to another person you should have your DNA on the databank.

In my experience, the DNA databank backlog is DNA that was located at property crimes- when you get a hit it gives you a series of old break and enters.

When I went through the Canadian Police College for Forensics the numbers of crimes solved by the Crime Scene Index was incredibly low. Like I was shocked at the cost compared to the results. They defended it by saying as the amount of offenders with DNA on the databank goes up the better the results will be.

To my knowledge there hasn't been a dramatic increase. This is not because we dont have what the Chiefs are proposing- it is because of the cumbersome process of getting the DNA onto the databank in the first place along with the judges choosing to not order the DNA taken- by either discretion or omission.

These issues need to be addressed before we reinvent the wheel.

In my experience whenever an association of police chiefs recommends something I can be counted on to disagree.

This.

:goodpost:
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Edward,...............IMO, you're still missing the point.
...
One swab,...boom,....off ya' go....


But where does my swab go? If it is into the state's databases then I remain unalterably opposed. If I am convicted of one of those serious crimes - not jay-walking or shop-lifting - then by all means keep my data; I have forfeited some rights by breaking my part of the social contract but until I am a convicted felon then the less you - as a servant of the state - know about me the safer I am. And that's what you and all LEOs are aiming to do, isn't it: keeping me safe?
 
Honest people aren't the problem.  It's the criminals.

Which is the same issue with police - honest ones (the overwhelming majority) aren't the problem.  It's the criminals.

I'm certain that the chiefs of police who support this will agree to start by swabbing all their officers, right?



...crickets...
 
Your swab becomes associated with a number is entered in to a Databank- where a profile is generated and the swab is gone. Every once in a while that profile is compared against the unknowns in the databank.

There is actually nothing stopping them from removing that profile if you are found not guilty. It would be very easy- IF the law was set up that if you were not convicted they had to delete your profile (and the jeopardy being the police would lose any charges generated down the line if the old profile wasnt removed) it doesnt seem so bad to me. Its the matter of a delete key.

See the profile itself doesnt actually convict you of anything. What it does is when there is a hit- a police officer has to apply for a Warrant to take another sample to compare directly to the crime scene sample. You cannot be convicted based off a databank hit- its merely grounds to look closer. If the judge isnt convinced that the crime scene DNA is actually evidence of a crime, like its just there and not really of note, he will not issue the warrant and youre done.

There is alot of oversight in DNA. The only real argument is- if you have been accused of a crime, and charged under reasonable and probable grounds. Do you deserve to have your DNA compared?

 
dapaterson said:
Honest people aren't the problem.  It's the criminals.

Which is the same issue with police - honest ones (the overwhelming majority) aren't the problem.  It's the criminals.

I'm certain that the chiefs of police who support this will agree to start by swabbing all their officers, right?



...crickets...

My DNA and my fingerprints are on the databank. I have no issues with this. For everyone else- the fingerprints of every police officer are on the databank.

I wouldnt mind if DNA was as well.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Here's mine...*licks the screen*

rolling-stones-lips-logo.jpg


... but you're sexier than Keith Richards ...
 
E.R. Campbell said:
but until I am a convicted felon then the less you - as a servant of the state - know about me the safer I am. And that's what you and all LEOs are aiming to do, isn't it: keeping me safe?

But you have a credit card, interac, internet forums and, holy crap, a passport,.......how the hell can we keep you safe?? :sarcasm:

I personally would like to be tracked down if by chance I should go missing.................or at least that my kids will know those are my remains in the acid vat,.....your milage may vary.
 
Bruce Monkhouse said:
Yup, nothing is 100% certain.

Crantor,...didn't you ever do a fingerprint thing in Grade school?  I did..............

Interestingly enough- the child fingerprinting initiatives go into a different databank with assurances that it will never be accessed for criminal search purposes.
 
Container said:
Interestingly enough- the child fingerprinting initiatives go into a different databank with assurances that it will never be accessed for criminal search purposes.

That I have no issues with.  Just like the CF fingerprint databank.
 
So, when the MPs are investigating an incident and they find fingerprints, they aren't allowed to run them against the CF database? Interesting . . .
 
captloadie said:
So, when the MPs are investigating an incident and they find fingerprints, they aren't allowed to run them against the CF database? Interesting . . .

Not the database that is used for ID.  AFAIK.  I took a fingerprinting course when I was a recruiter and prints taken for that purpose much like the prints required for your ID go into a different database.  That database cannot be accessed for criminal investigations (my understanding is that it can be used to identify victims though). 

I don't want to get too far out of my lanes though, which I am.  I'm relaying what I was taught and it was a few years ago. So how current that info is would be a guess at best.
 
The problem I have with all this, is that I can see the number of arrests going up, on simple things, just so they can increase their data bank.
 
recceguy said:
The problem I have with all this, is that I can see the number of arrests going up, on simple things, just so they can increase their data bank.

So you're assumpting that they do that now just for the fingerprint data base?
 
Back
Top