Lake ontario

[guns_and_roses]

Wow didnt expect this many respnses. Reason Ex draggon is that I didnt know they visited and so i asked because i wanted to no why. Now that i know they visit, my questions been answered.

Thanks.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

My friend visiting and building a naval base are two different things, one is establishing a presence and the other is just a temporary presence usually for PR.

 

[geo]

My friend visiting and building a naval base are two different things, one is establishing a presence and the other is just a temporary presence usually for PR.

Rereading his original post, the man is only asking if it is possible to build a naval port... not naval warships

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Or is it not deep enough?

Depth, you generally ask about to see the feasibility of berthing ships...

We generally don't have civillian vessels operating out of a military port.

Besides in my reply I never mentioned anything about warships.

 

[guns_and_roses]

Before asking this question i thought it was immposible, for 2 reasons i thought the lake was to shallow, and i didnt think warships could get through the st lawrence. As mentioned frigates could get through, but could a aircraft carrier get through and if there was a full out naval base, able to be built, how many ships do you think the Lake could hold, how many cities could have a base?

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

The only reason why we would even consider basing warships in the Great Lakes is if tensions were that as of the  War of 1812. I don't see us going to war with the US anytime soon. Besides, warships would be sitting ducks in the Great Lakes due to air craft, there is really no room for them to maneuver and get away.

No a carrier would not get through as they are too wide and the locks would not be able to handle ships that size.

 

[Danjanou]

... but could a aircraft carrier get through...

Actually the USN operated 2 aircraft carriers on the Great Lakes during  World War Two. Small training carriers yes, but aircraft carriers. I guess no one bothered to enforce Rush Bagot with a war on.

http://ix-carriers.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_archive.html


http://www.acbs-bslol.com/Porthole/PaddleWheeler.htm

 

[guns_and_roses]

I aplogize but what are locks? Im not a navy type guy just curious.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

In a nutshell picture locks as an elevator moving ships from one elevation to another or from one cardinal point to another to follow the direction flow of the water.

 

[Danjanou]

I aplogize but waht are locks? Im not a navy type guy just curious.

Locks are those big water filled elevators used to move ships up and down, best example on the Great Lkes would be the ones at the Welland Canal to circumnavigate the Falls between Lakes Erie and Ontario and the larger series that consitute the St Lawrence Seaway connecting Lake Ontario with the St Lawrence and eventually the Atlantic Ocean.

BTW it should be noted neither of the carriers I showed above ever left the lakes. They were converted passenger ships and only sailed on lakes Michigan, Superior, and Erie. I guess they were too big to fit through the Welland Canal. The St Lawrence Seaway of course wasn't completed until after the war's end.

As Ex Dragoon notes the only reason to even consider building or basing ships on the Lakes would be in the event of hostilities with the US and considering the lead time to devlop build a modern ship that is highly unlikely. Many of the shiops laid down in 1812-13 were never completed by the end of the war in 1814 and later scrapped. A little reading on the naval campaigns and the arms race on the lakes is actually recommended.

 

[Roy Harding]

I aplogize but what are locks? Im not a navy type guy just curious.

What grade are you in, guns_and_roses?  Is the great engineering feat of the St Lawrence Seaway no longer taught in our public schools?

 

[geo]

WRT the "carriers" operated on the great lakes.... these were old coal burning great lake steamers on which they built wooden decks from which naval aviators could practice their take offs and landings.

I do not think they were armed and I do not think they had hangar space for the planes.
By the looks of the pictures provided, they did not have the steam operated catapults now found on modern carriers.
Sooo.... call em "mock" carriers.

 

[guns_and_roses]

To danjanou thank you, to Roy i don't think the St Lawrence subject ever came up in school, also I'm in grade 11.(2.5 more year till the regs, will be joining the 48 highlanders in like April next year, could join now but because of my stupidness i did MJ in August, wont touch it ever again but that's a different subject for a different day)

 

[Roy Harding]

To danjanou thank you, to Roy i don't think the St Lawrence subject ever came up in school, also I'm in grade 11.(2.5 more year till the regs, will be joining the 48 highlanders in like April next year, could join now but because of my stupidness i did MJ in August, wont touch it ever again but that's a different subject for a different day)

Tell your history teacher (or Social Studies, or whatever they call it now) that you're interested in the history of the St Lawrence Seaway.  He/she SHOULD be able to direct you to some great reading on the subject.  And MAYBE it'll underline the fact that Canadian history is woefully ignored in our school system.

If your teacher can't help you, do a google search on the subject and start reading.

 

[guns_and_roses]

Right now i dont have that, Canadian history is taught in only grade 10, and 12 at my school. I have Ancient Civilization, American history, and history form the 1600-present.

 

[Roy Harding]

Right now i dont have that, Canadian history is taught in only grade 10, and 12 at my school. I have Ancient Civilization, American history, and history form the 1600-present.

The St Lawrence Seaway fits into the last category - "history from 1600 - present".

 

[FSTO]

Also the Americans had a hand in building the Seaway so it should be taught in the history section you now are in.

 

[YZT580]

If you can find a copy, there is a short historical outline of the war of 1812 Great Lakes Naval actions entitled.  In the Wake of the 1812RS or something very similar.  It will give you details on ships such as the Hamilton and Scourge and also the almost unbelievable adventure surrounding the Nancy which is nothing more than a few burnt timbers in a museum near Wasaga Beach now.  You will enjoy the read and it will give you a lot of pride in your country's past.

 

[Danjanou]

The story of HMS Nancy and Lt Miller Worsley RN is one of those tales of bravery and dedication to duty that should be taught if we bothered teaching our history in our schools. I alway thought it would make a great movie... if we bothered to celebrate our military heritage by making movies about it. :

http://www.wasagabeachpark.com/war1812.html

 

[AJFitzpatrick]

There is also the Rideau Canal to consider in terms of history, naval capability and engineering. Also built in response to the aftermath of the war of 1812.
I have actually seen naval vessels on it (sorry don't recall any ship names).
Just curious was Rush-Bagot treaty suspended during WWII ? How else where naval vessels (presumably armed) built on both sides on the Great Lakes (including Kingston) transited to the Atlantic?