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Keeping wounded in CF - merged super-thread

I too am on the fence to some degree as well.  I know there are folks who can still contribute in a meaningful way to the machine, but if those who can deploy get left holding the bag and burned out with no escape from the treadmill, they'll vote with their feet.  That, is unsustainable in a small military like ours.  It is because of this type of situation in the navy that we're in deep trouble with keeping ships at sea that we are today and it's only going to get worse in the marine engineering world.  All this trade amalgamation has done is added fuel to the fires of discontent that was already there with pier head jumping amongst the Stokers and has now spread to the ET and HT.
 
IMHO the CDS is now in legacy mode and he will never have to reap the seeds he is sowing in his final year in the job.  Remember that Gen Hillier left us with the .com HQs.  If you can be retained with injuries does that mean all of those who were medically released can now apply to re-enroll?  Are we going to establish a new set of "slightly less than" universality of service standards.  If it is done on a case by case basis as the CDS has long insisted who is doing the delineation between released, retained and meeting U of S?

 
Eye In The Sky said:
I'm on the fence with this whole issue;  I know there are some folks who can still serve, but I don't think the deployable fit folks should have to be the ones doing the heavy lifting while others stay home, enjoy every holiday weekend and work Mon-Fri, 8 to 4.

In a force as small as we are, I don't think we can afford to have any less people able to do the real business when push comes to shove.

I think what we need to do is gather the data on how many personal as a percentage of the CAF this affects. Let's say the number is about 5% or less, I'd be okay with that amount being left alone to be a training cadre to impart their knowledge and skills to the next generation of troops. If it was say like 17% of the CAF then I'd say sorry some of you have to go, I think there is an acceptable number we can keep but as stated we are a small force, if too many personal cannot be deployed the problems will snow ball on us.
 
This is a massive slippery slope. Are you going to stick a Cpl from 3RCR in Range Control for 15 years? Are these folks going to get posted? If you post them to the schools, how long are they going to be retained until their operational experience (leaning more towards Sigs as a rapidly changing field) is no longer valid and the quality of instruction goes down?

We already have folks who are on TCAT/PCAT get promoted (only if they have a valid PT test for some reason) and folks who are not medically able to complete their career courses retain their rank (no issue here IMO). Even a 5% reduction in our deployable force is going to put more of the burden on those who can deploy, increasing the risk of OSI, which increases more folks who cannot deploy. Its a vicious circle.
 
Possibly there will be a requirement for a positive prognosis within a certain period of time so that member will be deplorable in x years. After that period a limit of one extension of x years.

Pure speculation on my part.

Or, linking back to another thread, posting to Ottawa for ceremonial duties. ;D
 
We were briefed on ILP about this. My understanding is there will be major culture change that will need to happen. In a nutshell, they are looking at revamping the system to have a Reg Force without restrictions, Reg Force with restrictions, Res Force without restrictions and Res Force with restrictions. The main difference between with or without restrictions would be deployability and postings. Also, a financial bonus on the salary would be provided to encourage members to be in the "without restrictions" category.
 
Eagle Eye View said:
We were briefed on ILP about this. My understanding is there will be major culture change that will need to happen. In a nutshell, they are looking at revamping the system to have a Reg Force without restrictions, Reg Force with restrictions, Res Force without restrictions and Res Force with restrictions. The main difference between with or without restrictions would be deployability and postings. Also, a financial bonus on the salary would be provided to encourage members to be in the "without restrictions" category.

Are those "without restrictions" pers going to be the ones posting around every 3 years? I can see this going horribly wrong, quickly, if not implemented in a way that has a lot of incentives to stay "without restrictions".
 
Interesting post, thank you.  Ex reg force guy and ex base brat here, my family lived on 5 bases in 6 years.  When I was in the reg force postings were 3-4 years long.  How long are postings normally now?  Thanks for the response.
 
Eagle Eye View said:
We were briefed on ILP about this. My understanding is there will be major culture change that will need to happen. In a nutshell, they are looking at revamping the system to have a Reg Force without restrictions, Reg Force with restrictions, Res Force without restrictions and Res Force with restrictions. The main difference between with or without restrictions would be deployability and postings. Also, a financial bonus on the salary would be provided to encourage members to be in the "without restrictions" category.

That is going to need to be a serious non taxed financial bonus to keep people from being in the "with restrictions" category.
 
The reality is that the Attorney General of Canada and Canadian Humans Rights Tribunals are going to squash this based on the National Defence Act, since bona fide operational requirement = universality of service = Soldier First.  Without it being universal then you can't prevent the enrolment standards from allowing "with restriction" recruits.

Reference: https://www.cdn-hr-reporter.ca/hr_topics/occupational-health-and-safety/soldier-first-policy-armed-forces-upheld-federal-court-appe

"On the question of the "soldier first" policy, there is a split in the Court's decision. The Canadian Armed Forces argues in this case (and in others) that blanket rules requiring that members be free of specified disabilities are bona fide occupational requirements because any member of the Armed Forces, no matter what his or her trade or position, is a "soldier first" and can be required to engage in combat.

The Tribunal declined to apply the "soldier first" policy because it found that in a number of ways the Canadian Armed Forces contradicted this policy in its practice; by failing to demonstrate that persons in non-combat positions could be called on in a time of combat; and by granting medical waivers to members who would be in combat positions in time of war.

However, the majority of the Court finds that the obligation on members to engage in combat if required is imposed by the National Defence Act. The statute is binding and administrative practice cannot work a modification. Consequently, the majority upholds the right of the Canadian Armed Forces to base its policies regarding disability on a "soldier first" policy."

Reference: https://www.cfmws.com/en/AboutUs/PSP/DFIT/Fitness/Pages/Bona-Fide-Occupational-Requirement.aspx

What is it?
A BFOR is defined by the Government of Canada as:
“A condition of employment that is imposed in the belief that it is necessary for the safe, efficient, and reliable performance of the job and which is objectively, reasonably necessary for such performance”
 
Why?
Fitness screening is necessary for a CF member because of the physically demanding occupation.  Ineffective job performance can result in loss of life or damage to property.  Because the Canadian Human Rights Act prohibits any discriminatory practices, a CF member could say that a fitness screening is discriminatory.

Nevertheless, paragraph 15(1a)  of the Canadian Human Rights Act, states that:

“It is not a discriminatory practice if any refusal, exclusion, expulsion, suspension, limitation, specification or preference in relation to employment is established by an employer based on a BFOR” (Government of Canada, 1985a).

Therefore, when establishing a occupational/fitness standard, the employer most comply with bona fide occupational requirements and must be related to the essential components of the job.  Also, the employer must be ready to defend it as a BFOR.
 
jollyjacktar said:
I too am on the fence to some degree as well.  I know there are folks who can still contribute in a meaningful way to the machine, but if those who can deploy get left holding the bag and burned out with no escape from the treadmill, they'll vote with their feet.  That, is unsustainable in a small military like ours.  It is because of this type of situation in the navy that we're in deep trouble with keeping ships at sea that we are today and it's only going to get worse in the marine engineering world.  All this trade amalgamation has done is added fuel to the fires of discontent that was already there with pier head jumping amongst the Stokers and has now spread to the ET and HT.

I think that's an accurate assessment, the fires are burning.
 
I can't say I'm thrilled by this idea. While I accept that there is a need to accommodate those pers who for whatever reason are not deployable, there is a certain threshold where it starts to impact overall operational capability. What happens when a small occupation crosses that threshold, or a unit is carrying too many people with restrictions? I foresee greater instances of burnout as the same folks get deployed even more often than they do now.

I'm also not convinced that a salary bump is going to have the desired effect. You can't cure a person with dollars. Injuries and illnesses take time, and some people never return to operation status. We (and they) should accept that this is a reality and we should invest in a robust transition programme that is more than mere words about priority hiring and so forth.

We should make much better use of things like SCAN, by turning it way from its current medical release focus, and redirect the energies to transition planning starting during recruit training. There should be a review at least at the end of each period of engagement. It's past too late to plan your civilian life when you have your release message in your hands. I recognize that it is not the job of the CF to prepare you for your second career, but I think there is a moral obligation to not release folks who are subsequently unemployable.
 
As it stands now, some folks might be retained on accommodation for up to 3 years.  That gives the CF time to recruit, train, get to OFP and beyond perhaps, the "next person" who will replace them.

What if a mbr is injured (PCAT type injury) 2 months after signing their IE25.  Then what?  We have a mbr who cannot deploy for XX years, who takes the non-deploy billets in their trade?  This will have a cumulative effect.

Bonus for staying deployable?  What happens when a small trade like mine already is maxed out and a few more people go onto the "Cl B type TOS" list. 
 
Eagle Eye View said:
We were briefed on ILP about this. My understanding is there will be major culture change that will need to happen. In a nutshell, they are looking at revamping the system to have a Reg Force without restrictions, Reg Force with restrictions, Res Force without restrictions and Res Force with restrictions. The main difference between with or without restrictions would be deployability and postings. Also, a financial bonus on the salary would be provided to encourage members to be in the "without restrictions" category.

Full Time Unrestricted;
Part Time Unrestricted;
Full Time Restricted;
Part Time Restricted.

Of course the greatest financial incentives will go to the unrestricted group.

Did they also brief the "CFB Canada" concept?  Federal Health Cards for all family members that will be utilized nation-wide vice having to switch up with every province (apparently having issues getting la belle province on-board with this) amongst the other items?

Indeed, the times they are a changing ...and it's looking for the better in my opinion.
 
ModlrMike said:
...I'm also not convinced that a salary bump is going to have the desired effect. You can't cure a person with dollars. Injuries and illnesses take time, and some people never return to operation status. We (and they) should accept that this is a reality and we should invest in a robust transition programme that is more than mere words about priority hiring and so forth.
...

They aren't ignoring "transition" while they deal with the other items.  Huge change is also coming in that area.

Register here:

https://www.metforce.ca/met/en/


 
There is significant risk in over-promising in many areas.  When you have a potential need for legislative change, regulatory change, and policy & process changes, those take significant time to achieve; right now, there's a conceptual framework that briefs well on PowerPoint, and is about that deep.

So don't count on any of these conceptual ideas for your next few postings.
 
dapaterson said:
....
...
So don't count on any of these conceptual ideas for your next few postings.

Molasses indeed.  I'll be out before most come to fruition.  Slow and cold.
 
ArmyVern said:
They aren't ignoring "transition" while they deal with the other items.  Huge change is also coming in that area.

Register here:

https://www.metforce.ca/met/en/
I attended their career fair last month.  It was very slick, promised the sun and the moon too.  So far, l have been underwhelmed with the website.  Lots of bugs to work out.  It's felt like an election campaign, lots of promises but less substance.  If they do make it match promises, will be a fine thing to see.
 
jollyjacktar said:
I attended their career fair last month.  It was very slick, promised the sun and the moon too.  So far, l have been underwhelmed with the website.  Lots of bugs to work out.  It's felt like an election campaign, lots of promises but less substance.  If they do make it match promises, will be a fine thing to see.

I know a few who've registered and are very impressed ... especially those with job offers and the one with the small business mentor who is really helping him out.

It's a month old so of course there's still bugs to be worked out ... just like generations-old iphones still get program updates to this day.

It's a non-profit so the slick is quite OK with me ... because it's the right thing to do.
 
ArmyVern said:
I know a few who've registered and are very impressed ... especially those with job offers and the one with the small business mentor who is really helping him out.

It's a month old so of course there's still bugs to be worked out ... just like generations-old iphones still get program updates to this day.

It's a non-profit so the slick is quite OK with me ... because it's the right thing to do.


That's fantastic news if some are finding success.  This group's hearts in the right place.  I truly hope they are outstanding in their success rate and results.
 
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