Keep JTF2 'killers' on military base

[Slim]

As Co-Chairs for The Canadian Voice of Women for Peace (VOW) we are 
writing to express our dismay and concern over the swaggering, 
offensive and militaristic language used by Chief of the Defence 
Staff, General Rick Hillier in reference to Canada's new mission in 
Afghanistan and more so over the Canadian government's swift 
sanctioning of his comments. To refer to the enemy as he did as 
"detestable murderers and scumbags" who detest our freedoms, society 
and liberties and to then aver that the job of the Canadian Forces is 
"to be able to kill people"
is at odds with our sensibilities and 
cultural sensitivities as Canadians, with our core public policy 
values and with our foreign policy tradition. In this regard, we 
find General Hillier's remarks decidedly un-Canadian and 
uncharacteristically akin to the militaristic, gun - toting culture 
to the south, with its 'cowboy' rhetoric and belligerent and bullying 
unilateral approach to global politics and its unending 'war on 
terror.'

Who in heaven's name are these people ...What the hell do they think soldiers actually do?! And I hope to God that absolutely NO ONE LISTENS TO THEM...EVER!!!

 

[dorionhawk]

Letter from Gordon O'Connor to the Citizen Editorial board

Letter to Editor
Ottawa Citizen

JTF2

I am writing about the outrageous headline and article concerning my comments and the JTF2. The headline implied words that I never said. It was obviously done to gain as much sensationalism as possible with most of the comments I made left out.  At the interview I was asked if I thought the JTF2 should move from their present location and I said yes. My preference is to have them locate within a base like CFB Petawawa.

The reasons are twofold; first the current plan is to expand them from 300 to 600 personnel. This is too large a force to occupy the site at Dwyer Hill. The second reason is the nature of their tasks and training. They are a counter terrorism force and as such they must be able to deal with terrorists and be prepared to resolve threats through a variety of means including deadly force. They operate in secrecy for self-protection, which is understandable, but as a result they are not open to public scrutiny.  Because of their special skills and their secretive and autonomous nature it is important that they be managed more carefully than other Canadian Forces units. I believe that being located on a base with other units would be the best arrangement for JTF2. 

In closing I wish to reiterate that I did not say what is alleged in the headline. The author of the article chose those unfortunate words. JTF2 is an important and necessary part of the Canadian Forces capabilities, which the Canadian Forces will continue to need into the future. However I believe that they should be located on a military base.

Gordon O’Connor     

 

[PPCLI MCpl]

"They're very highly trained people who are trained in anti-social skills, I would call it -- they're trained to kill people in various ways," Mr. O'Connor, a former army general, told the Citizen's editorial board yesterday. "I would prefer them to be under iron-tight discipline inside a military base."

At what point does he not state that they are trained killers?  And where does he not say they should be kept on a base?

Despite the standard media flair applied to the article's title, it seems like an accurate summary of the contents to me.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

short final thanks for the email.

 

[Haggis]

Heaven help us if he becomes MND.....

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Does anyone have her email?
Janet M Eaton, PhD. Co-Chair  
Janis Alton, Co-Chair
Canadian Voice of Women for Peace

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Mr Dorion,

Perhaps, being so close to Mr O'Connor, you could do us a favour. You see, this is not the first time Mr. O"Connor has raised the ire of the members here with his comments. His stance against the fast tracking of equipment purchases is another, for instance. Would he be willing to spend some time answering questions posed by the subscribers here? If this has possibilities, please PM myself or any other of the staff and we'll go about setting it up.

Thank you for your time.

 

[GO!!!]

I guess I can stay posted here to Edmonton, because MY unit is not trained to kill people, we are just a uniformed social club.  :

This goes to prove my previous theory that our MPs and would be MPs are just looking for attention, and will do anything to get it, good or bad.

Can I really vote conservative now that I know this dummy opposes the fast-tracking of life saving equipment, and seems to have a hate on for SF capabilities?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Not to mention his stance on the AGL and 40mm grenades. :

 

[a_majoor]

> September 10, 2005

Voice of Women on General Hillier's Abusive Language


As Co-Chairs for The Canadian Voice of Women for Peace (VOW) we are 
writing to express our dismay and concern over the swaggering, 
offensive and militaristic language used by Chief of the Defence 
Staff, General Rick Hillier in reference to Canada's new mission in 
Afghanistan and more so over the Canadian government's swift 
sanctioning of his comments. To refer to the enemy as he did as 
"detestable murderers and scumbags" who detest our freedoms, society 
and liberties and to then aver that the job of the Canadian Forces is 
"to be able to kill people" is at odds with our sensibilities and 
cultural sensitivities as Canadians, with our core public policy 
values and with our foreign policy tradition. In this regard, we 
find General Hillier's remarks decidedly un-Canadian and 
uncharacteristically akin to the militaristic, gun - toting culture 
to the south, with its 'cowboy' rhetoric and belligerent and bullying 
unilateral approach to global politics and its unending 'war on 
terror.'

Yours sincerely,
Janet M Eaton, PhD. Co-Chair 
Janis Alton, Co-Chair
Canadian Voice of Women for Peace


Janet M Eaton, PhD,
133 Main St., 
Wolfville, NS B4P 1C2

I read the little article and noticed the author has PHD behind her name. Looking at the logical fallacies, minimal grasp of recent history and total inability to understand what our enemies are saying in very clear speech, I would suggest this is the perfect counter argument to anyone who EVER suggests that university education should be subsidized in any way whatsoever.

Janet is quite fortunate that there still is a Canadian Forces to keep her from being violated and beheaded on one of those oh so popular Al Qaeda videos for the mortal offence of being a woman, being educated or speaking in a public forum. Sorry if the graphic image offends, but these are the stakes for her and for all of us.

People like her, Mr O'Connor, the talking heads of the Canadian media and everyone else had better look up and out for a change before their ill informed and (lets face it) ignorant comments start getting doors closed in our faces by "grown up" nations who take the safety and security of their citizens seriously.

 

[48Highlander]

Eh, you can't take an extreme example like her and use it as a reason to justify cutting subsidies for universities.  Otherwise people opposed to the military could easily point to the dumbest mouth-breather we've got and say "see, we shouldn't even HAVE an army".

But if you really want to see how out of 'er this...."Doctor" is, check out what she had to say while we were in the Balkans

That NATO bombed with the intent to create an environmental disaster and to threaten Belgrade into submission can also be further inferred from damning evidence unearthed by Professor Michel Chossudovsky. In his post-war visit to Pancevo, Professor Chossudovsky spoke with the Pancevo Plant manager and saw and gathered first hand evidence that on April 18 NATO selectively bombed holding tanks which contained highly toxic chemicals of a non -military nature while ignoring those tanks which had been emptied by the workers to avoid combustion from bombing attacks.

Thermal-sensitive satellite imagery along with smart bombs make possible such precise targeting which conversely would have allowed NATO to disable the plant without the devastating consequence to the environment and human health. Instead NATO bombed with intent to threaten the entire population of the Pancevo/Belgrade area and beyond. Indeed but for a quirk of meteorological fate which blew the thick dense mile-long black cloud from the Pancevo bombings in a northwesterly direction, the entire city of Belgrade would have been subject to the deadly black cloud of toxins which hovered just above the city.

:

whatamaroon

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Not to mention his stance on the AGL and 40mm grenades. :

Hey on the bright side I might get posted to the beautiful north and get to make friends with polar bears and seals.....

 

[GO!!!]

But if you really want to see how out of 'er this...."Doctor" is, check out what she had to say while we were in the Balkans

Yes, NATO was in such a hurry to create an environmental holocaust in the Balkans that they forgot that tens of thousands of NATO troops would soon be patrolling those same areas.....and that they would be responsible for all of the costs associated with their care.

I suppose it would have been better not to go to the Balkans at all - but then Dr. Eaton's piteous bleating would be to the effect of NATO "encouraging ethnic cleansing through inaction".

Maybe if I had a Doctrate, I too would understand her logic..... :

 

[a_majoor]

Eh, you can't take an extreme example like her and use it as a reason to justify cutting subsidies for universities.  Otherwise people opposed to the military could easily point to the dumbest mouth-breather we've got and say "see, we shouldn't even HAVE an army".

But if you really want to see how out of 'er this...."Doctor" is, check out what she had to say while we were in the Balkans

whatamaroon

Judging from these two pieces, she probably would never have been able to keep or hold a more than entry level job, not enough intellectual horsepower in evidence. However, thanks to the generous system of subsidies, she can claim the title of "Dr" on the basis of our hard work (who paid for the "education" so brilliantly on display there?).

While you are quite correct about people pointing out our dim lights as a possible reason not to have a military, people holding that opinion would have a sudden and very illuminating visit by the philosopher Thomas Hobbes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Hobbes) shortly after we packed it in, while we would never notice the sudden disappearance of a person like the good "Dr." Eaton.

 

[Good2Golf]

Are not Canada's federal, provincial and municipal police officers also "trained to kill" to protect law-abiding citizens and other law enforcement officers if the conditions so dictate? 

Considering the selection and training process of both groups (JTF & LE) is aimed towards creating a professional body of force capable of and specifically meant to protect society, I fail to see how members of either group could be considered "anti-social"... ???

Cheers,
Duey

p.s.  Hopefully if the conservatives are fortunate to win a minority, they will choose someone with some common sense for MND, like Laurie Hawn...not O'Connor.  In fact...I would like to see the Conservatives present a proposed cabinet, and if O'Connor is MND, I'll vote Green!

 

[Steel Badger]

Would someone please tell O'Connor that Bruce and I area already kept behind bars..........

 

[The Bread Guy]

http://server09.densan.ca/archivenews/051223/cit/051223a9.htm

''Mr. O'Connor said Wednesday he would move the JTF2 unit, which is currently housed on its own property about 20 kilometres south of the city, to the more disciplined confines of a military base. 
"Because they're very highly trained people, who are trained in ... antisocial skills, I would call it, trained to kill people in various different ways," Mr. O'Connor, a former army general, told the Citizen's editorial board, "I would prefer them to be under iron-tight discipline inside a military base." ''

1)  As opposed to the rest of the military, which knows how to kill in a limited number of ways?
2)  As opposed to militaries outside Canada learning "pro-social" war winning skills?
3)  As a former tanker (http://www.gordonoconnor.ca/biography.htm), does he think spec ops types can be improved by a handle-bar moustached sgt-maj marching them up and down the square?

Anyone, anyone?

 

[Infanteer]

Chances are that if it is a few days old, then it is already up here on Army.ca.

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37742.new.html#new

 

[The_Falcon]

It seems to me that Mr O'Connor has the same distrust and distaste for Spec Ops Units/Capabilities that many in the coventential military who rise to such lofty oxygen depleted heights develop.  One only need to look the US and see how thier SF community evolved, it was a painful process that took a lot of time had to overcome much resistance.

They are a counter terrorism force and as such they must be able to deal with terrorists and be prepared to resolve threats through a variety of means including deadly force.

The rest of the Canadian military, and public law enforcement are also prepared to resolve threats (from terrorists or otherwise) through a variety of means including deadly force.  So what exactly is your point, other than to paint JTF2 in an unflattering and insidious light?

They operate in secrecy for self-protection, which is understandable, but as a result they are not open to public scrutiny.

  So?  Look around the western world, we are no different than our allies WRT how they manage their Spec Ops people.  They are accountable to the Chain of Command, who are in turn accountable to the Politicians.  You have been watching to many bad movies about SF running rogue and going about doing thier own thing.

Because of their special skills and their secretive and autonomous nature it is important that they be managed more carefully than other Canadian Forces units. I believe that being located on a base with other units would be the best arrangement for JTF2. 

They report to the DCDS who reports to the CDS who reports to the MND who reports to the Privy Council, how exactly would you manage them?  Add another 5 or 6 links in the chain or do just the opposite and micromange them from the MND's office?  As well how exactly would you keep their capabilities/identities secret by placing them on large (population wise) OPEN base like Petawawa?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Hatchet Man PLEASE email him and his chain of command WRT your comments.  PLEASE.

p.s.  yes I have emailed him already.