Joining Reg Force Armour

[30 for 30]

Would anyone recommend joining one regular armoured unit over another? I know one doesn‘t necessarily have a choice, but I‘m told you can at least make a request.
Would anyone strongly recommend armour over another trade? Why?
And I might as well ask it while I‘m here...how long is the drive from Petawawa to Montreal??! (I‘m from out West).

Thx.

 

[brin11]

Pet to Montreal:

If I remember correctly it is probably about 2.5 hours. Around 1.5 to Ottawa and then an hour to Montreal. Its been a long time though, correct me if I‘m wrong.

 

[Recce41]

No their all the same ****. LDSH (RC) in Edmonton, RCD in Petawawa, 12RBC in Valcartier. But if you join you could go to any Regt. Its up to Ottawa not you where you go. You could even end up in the S***hole of the world CFB Gagetown.

 

[Meridian]

Hi there...  Long story short I am a former ROTP-er looking at rejoining...  without getting into why I left and why I am pretty sure I can get back in, I would like some specific info on  Armour Officer Phase Training.... Specifically end phase II, and phases III and IV.

While everyone recognizes these courses are demanding - I am not asking someone to tell me this is a cakewalk here - I would like a general idea of the basic aptitudes required to meet the demands of an armoured course, specifically at the officer or PC level.

A former Infantry OC of mine once described the Armour trade as the most spatially demanding and the biggest combination of skills required in Infantry (more physically demanding) and the Arty (more intellectually demanding). Yes this is dumbing things down, but he was trying to make a point as to how some people prefer one over the other and perfrom better in one rather than the other.

Anyway... im wondering.....  Whats a day to day example of a Phase III/IV armour courses?  The Armour School page isnt much help, CFLRS talks only about Phase I.  Recruiting materials quite frankly suck.

Is getting the "spatial" orientation that difficult? Is gunnery hugely difficult....  Do most who apply themselves pass the course, or is it just so difficult that many just dont pass?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Recce41]

Well
Being a Armour Officer, is not that easy. You have to hump you ass like the Inf and have to do some of the same jobs as the Arty. A Crew Commander in Battle is on the same level as a fight pilot. This was stated in a Janes.
As for Phase training, it is now the DP system. Phase 3 is DP1 AO CC, Ph4 is DP1 AO Tp Leader.
The easest way to start, is Phase 3:
1. Basic Coyote Gunner/CC course.
2. Tactics and CC battle procedure lessons.
3. In the field for tactics, 1 month.
Phase 4
1. More lectures on tactics at troop level
2. 2 months straight in the field. for tactics
For full details, join and see.

 

[Meridian]

Forgive me Recce if I hope more info from others is forthcoming.  Joining and waiting to see sounds like a fun thing for a course instructor to say, but personally I like to be as mentally prepared as possible.

I appreciate your comments.. could you provide a link or more info on the "DP" system?

 

[maggiemagooo]

hi guys!!!  just wanted to know.. i'm looking into joining the reg forces (armoured)... is there any opportunity for future recruits to meet with others already in the force to get a better idea of what their MOC of choice will be like??? I'm located not far from borden .. and would like to know a bit more of what armoured is like ; talking to someone with experience gives me a better idea of what they do and how they feel about it, thus allowing me to make a more informed decision as to whether this career choice is right for me. Any info would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

 

[Bzzliteyr]

feel free to MSN me.. I'll "sell" you on it if you need.. can't do it in person cause I am in Gagetown.. bzzliteyr@hotmail.com

 

[maggiemagooo]

thanks for the reply .. i sent you out an email on msn.. hope to hear from you soon

 

[m_a_c]

Hey Maggie,

I can give you an idea of what armoured is like, I was armoured reg force for a while.  Feel free to msn or email me anytime if you have any questions. 

 

[sigpig]

Ok, let me try and remember something from waaaaayyyyy back - Ph II, III, and IV armour 2 Jan 1985 - 8 Aug 1985. (Am I really that old? Damn  :crybaby So there is a giant * to all this, my trg was 20 years ago and I've been away from armour for 16 years.

Ph II was like a combat leader course or section commander course. You would lead your section of 8-10 pers in patrols or section attacks. Everyone would rotate being the IC, 2IC, or member. It was all infantry stuff, no riding. I did the Ph II in the winter so there was much pulling of heavily loaded tobaggans across the snow and dealing with the slush. I also did a Ph II infantry as a reservist and that was hot, thirsty, and a lot of walking through swamps. So it sucks in any season.

There will be classroom lectures on counselling, performance evaluations, corps history, nbc stuff, etc, etc. When I went through we would typically leave for the field first thing Monday morning and return Friday afternoon. The weeks would roughly alternate between classroom and field with more field work towards the end of the course as final evaluations came up.

Ph III was the crew commanding course, On mine we were in Leopards. I'm not sure what the other commenter meant by 'spatially demanding' but one thing that I remember vividly was learning how to deal with a vehicle with a moving, stablized turret. If you have moved the gun over to a target to have the gunner observe it, the body of the vehicle is likely pointing in another direction. So if you say advance thinking you will moving in the direction of the turret/gun, you won't. The gunner can stay fixed on the target while the vehicle moves all over the place going every direction but towards the target. Getting used to this break between where you think you should be going and where you actually are was a challenge for many of us.

It seems Leopards aren't used any more for phase trg but I'm sure the other vehicles have their own particular maintenance demands. While we weren't vehicle techs we did participate in the simpler and often physically demanding tasks of track maintenance, changing road wheels, and, horror of horror, changing sprockets. For things that look big and tough tanks can be quite fragile and take a lot of maintenance. And of course there was much cleaning of the main gun (100lb breech block) and the mg's.

Ph IV was the troop leader course. We did ours in M113's as all the other vehicles were being used by other courses. The emphasis was on the tactics required to lead the troop and not the details of crew commanding although we did have to direct the driver and point the mg where the tank gun should be pointing for certain tasks 

Well, that's some of my recollections almost 20 years later. After all that I made a lousy armour officer and got out 3 years later. I'm much happier as a computer programmer stuck in Fort Lauderdale, FL  ;D

Hopefully someone more current can fill you in on how things are today. From following the news as best I can I wonder what the future holds when there is so much emphasis on recce and the tanks rust, er, fade away. Good luck in your pursuits.

 

[maggiemagooo]

hey thanks m_a_c... it would be great to find out some info...i tried your msn link but it was temporarily unavailable, so i'll try again sometime or you can email me at maggiemagooo4@hotmail.com
Any info would be great, and it's nice to get it first hand from someone who has been in the field

 

[noreaga808]

Can you guys try to sell me the idea of going Armoured here so the rest of us can also benefit from your experiences with your public posts. My 3 choices for MOC were Infantry, Armoured and Combat Engineer in that order. I'm still trying to decide which way to go because my medical isn't complete yet since I had to go with a civvie specialist. All this waiting is making me rethink which direction to go, I'm even thinking reserves. Any honest opinions from personal experience would be appreciated.  

 

[George Wallace]

Why did many of us go Armour?  Many of us are happy to have had "more rounded" training as Armoured soldiers and a better understanding of the Battlefield from this training and the speed by which Armour manoeuvres around the battlefield.  Armour concentrated more on Comms, Weaponry and Tactics than any of the other trades at all levels of rank.  Crewmen had to be proficient in the use of radios and radio procedure.  They had to know how to handle heavy weapons.  They had to know how to move a vehicle through all terrain and do so tactically.  They had to understand how to call in a Fire Mission and do Bridge Classifications (Roughly, and not to the same degree as Engineers) and do many Infantry type tasks.  If you were Recce, you would be "living life in the fast lane" on Exercise.  If you were in an Assault Troop you would be much like an Infantry Pioneer and have many Engineer skills for demolitions and Defensive constructions.  If you were in Tanks, you would literally "come" in your pants when you went into action, but spent much of your time waiting and resting in the woods on your backdeck.  To me, anyway, an Armour Soldier was a more rounded soldier.....perhaps a jack of all trades, yet not really a master of them (perhaps a master of none). 

Remember that Armour is only one part of a Cbt Team and you need all four Cbt Arms for it to work effectively.  Infantry are there for a good reason, as are the Cbt Engineers and Artillery.  Crewmen cannot do all the tasks of building bridges, firing howitzers and assaulting objectives without these guys who are the experts in those fields.

GW

 

[Meridian]

Sorry for the delay, but the update is appreciated! Much of what I expected, but fun to hear nonetheless.


Canada's recruiting videos could get a lot better...

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

Please note that the system is changing, and I went through the older version with Phases (I started as a RESO officer before joining the Regular Force, so my experiences are not necessarily typical).  I will avoid giving timelines and course progression, as it has changed, but I will try to give you an idea of what the training is like including the major pitfalls.

While the aim of training for OCdts/2Lts is to train them to be Troop Leaders (size of the Troop depends on unit role and is currently under review, anywhere from 4 to 8 vehicles), you will start with the basics. As Recce 41 states, Gunnery is the first major technical skill that you will be assessed on.  Some people catch onto Gunnery right away while others take longer. You will need to combine theoretical study (mostly memorization) with the ability to apply "hands-on" drills.

You ask if most people who apply themselves pass the course and I would answer that while you must apply yourself, sheer effort alone will probably not get you through. The art of crew commanding an armoured fighting vehicle is simple in theory but difficult in the application.  I've seen some great guys not pass Phase III/RESO III etc despite being motivated, fit and of excellent officer material (in my opinion).

When you get to the field you will receive practice and assessment on crew commanding a single vehicle.  In the previous years this was the major pitfall in my opinion.  Failure rates varied, but you could count on several candidates not being able to pass this phase.  The inability to navigate a moving vehicle is probably the biggest single cause of failure.  This is trickier than it sounds, as you cannot use a compass, the vehicle is moving, you are usually going cross country, you are trying to pay attention to the Tp radio net and you just dropped your map into the bottom of the hull/turret.  Now your drop cord unplugged and the driver cannot hear you.  You finally retreive your map and get your head out of the hatch and find your vehicle off on its own somewhere and you can't find a reference point.  Your DS is asking you to point out your position on the map with a fine tip pencil.  Oh dear... 

In addition, as mentioned earlier, the turret is stabilized and can cause your eyes to send misleading messages to your brain.  Perhaps this is the "spatial ability" they mentioned.  You also have to be able to translate your intentions to the crew (especially the driver) in a timely and accurate manner without hampering their initiative.  This is also an acquired art and the failure to obtain it can lead to problems (learned through personal experience).

Phase III used to be on Leopards which required an understanding of Tank Troop tactics. These are relatively simple but committing errors such as going broadside to the enemy, parking on top of the highest feature (the 220 feature was always a good one), cresting yourself (going "tracks-up") or moving beyond the support of the rest of the Tp could all lead to failing a trace.  Safety violations could also cause failure (not looking behind when backing up, hydralic safety violations etc).  Coyote tactics are perhaps more demanding as you will work in the Patrol context (two vehicles).  I'm not sure how this will be done in the School and perhaps some people on this board can help out here.

To be successful you should be able to navigate using dead reckoning, be able to look and think long range (good eyesight helps), participate in three conversations at once and be able to live and work in very tight confines.  Being in a tank or Coyote crew is an awesome experience and I certainly miss my old tank (my LSVW is just not the same).  I'm sure that others can add things I've missed.

You should find Armoured DP 1 Training challenging in both the physical and mental sense.  I think that your former Infantry OC was pretty much on the money in his description of the different trades in relation to each other.  Bear in mind, however, that Infantry, Armour, Artillery and Combat Engineers all have elements in common in their training.

Good luck if you choose to go Armoured!  Remember that finishing your formal training is only the first step and when you get to the Regiment the Troop WO, BC and OC will all round out your training (especially the Tp WO).

Cheers,

 

[Meridian]

Excellent review, exactly what I was looking for (even if it is outdated a bit).  Cheers!