Islam and nasikh??

[Mojo Magnum]

Here's a question,
Has anyone here ever heard of


nasikh

 

[-rb]

...yes...and more to the point...what do you want to know?

(edit) make it quick, i'm about to go quench my thirst! ;D

 

[Mojo Magnum]

ok, real quick.

Muhammed spent the first portion of his days playing nice.
Once he gets an army, he changes his tune.

Nasikh is the rule that says the most recent verse takes prescedent. meaning all the verses about live and let live are cancelled out by the "verse of the sword".

Is this accurate?

 

[-rb]

*disclaimer* by no means take this as gospel, or in this case the direct words of Allah

But, the term Nasikh in my understanding has more to do with the interpretation of the so called words of Allah from the Qu'ran. It's not saying that the most recent takes precednce but that one verse can be overruled or as Nasikh means 'Abrogated' over another. Much like religion in the west there are many different interpretations as to when this law would apply and when it wouldn't, depending on who you talk to.

Your best bet is to find a muslim acquantence on this topic as I have only recently been diving in to the cultural and religious aspects of Islam. I know(think) our friendly moderator Che is a practicing Muslim, from what I remember. Maybe he can chime in with his thoughts as I'm curious now too!

Also, not really a military current affair IMHO...now, off for a cold lager!
cheers.

 

[Mojo Magnum]

I was under the impression that in the case of conflicting revelations, that the most recent (the Mecca days I think) are to be considered the final word.  Hence my earlier post.  Just wondering if this is where the (hmmmm, what name do I give). 

Just wondering if this is where the "Muslims who abdicate violence" find there (hmmmm, searching for the words).. theological justification, (whew, did it .

I have been under the impression that those who say Islam is a peaceful "way", do not truely understand the connection of nasikh and the "verse of the sword".

Anyone with insight, feel free.

 

[paracowboy]

personally, I don't think it matters much what justification the Islamo-nuts use. If they didn't have one method to justify their actions, they'd twist their faith around until they did.

All religions do it, to one extent or another. Correction, someone in all religions has done it, to one extent or another. Religion isn't the sole reason for these behaviours, but it's a handy excuse.

 

[Mojo Magnum]

I hear ya, and with a bazillion wacko's through history I'd say you're on solid ground there.

but I can't help but think that this is different.  Christianity has to do some theological back flips to justify violence.

If I'm right about the "nasikh" thing. 

Violent expansion is job one.

 

[paracowboy]

but I can't help but think that this is different.   Christianity has to do some theological back flips to justify violence.

not so much. Catholic vs Protestant - Ireland. Greek Orthodox vs Catholic - the Balkans. Today. Right now. If inclined, I could probably rack my brain a bit and think up some more, but the point is made, I think.

(None of this is to say, "Oh, those wacky Muslims!" and give 'em a noogie, or anything.)

 

[Mojo Magnum]

what I am attempting to discern is whether or not there is a fundamental difference between other religions and Islam.

because, at the end of the day, Hari Krishna's, christians, Jews, Zen budists or other have not blown themselves up that I'm aware of.

What is unique about these people that has them doing this?

I am under the impression that army.ca is not too fond of direct scripture quotes so I will refrain.  but...

  I think what is unique is their interpretation of God through Mohammed's revelations.  And as much as I would like to say otherwise.  This nasikh rule seems to make the whole thing very black and white.
As far as Quranic interpretations go.


any edumacation is welcome.

 

[GNR]

Christianity has to do some theological back flips to justify violence?
Have you ever read the Old Testament?

Give it a good read and you may re-evaluate your viewpoint.

 

[paracowboy]

any edumacation is welcome.

hang on, it'll be coming, and we'll both learn us sumthin'.

 

[Mojo Magnum]

ah,
but the old testament, while acknowledged by christianity,
is essentially judaism,
not christianity in itself.

the whole old covenant, new covenant thing.

far as i know anyway.

 

[GNR]

You obviously never read the whole New Testament, Jesus was Jewish and he never renounced Judaism. In fact, Jesus clearly stated that he did not come to change the Law, i.e., the Torah and its teachings, but rather to fulfill it.

The Old Testament still stands, and is a guideline to Christians & Jews.

 

[Mojo Magnum]

be cool now, no offense intended.

I certainly have read, but understandings vary.
He did make changes.  The old law does not stand.  for jews perhaps, but I'm not jewish.  I don't shed the blood of animals to atone for anything.  That was done by Christ himself. 

Regardless, that is not the intention of the thread.

My curiousity is with nasikh, and its effect on the direction of Islam.

Do you have any insight on this topic?

 

[Infanteer]

what I am attempting to discern is whether or not there is a fundamental difference between other religions and Islam.

because, at the end of the day, Hari Krishna's, christians, Jews, Zen budists or other have not blown themselves up that I'm aware of.

What is unique about these people that has them doing this?

I am under the impression that army.ca is not too fond of direct scripture quotes so I will refrain.   but...

  I think what is unique is their interpretation of God through Mohammed's revelations.   And as much as I would like to say otherwise.    This nasikh rule seems to make the whole thing very black and white.
As far as Quranic interpretations go.

any edumacation is welcome.

My question for you is this?   If nasikh is important, how does it work.   The suras of the Qu'ran are arranged by length, not chronology - so do the shorter suras (the latter ones) abrogate the longer, earlier ones?   Or is it based on chonological order?   Do the Hadith nullify the suras of the Qu'ran - or opposite?

This is why convention, interpretation, and jurisprudence come into play and why you cannot ignore it.   Read my post here on maddhabs and what not:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/34331.180.html

There are different schools of thought within Islam, ranging from the Salafists who refute everything after the 7th century to Sufi mysticism.   It is a religion that is over 1000 years old, crosses continents, cultures, and languages, and is practiced by over a billion people.   You are not going to find one "key" concept that will explain everything within Islam (except maybe that There is no God but God and Muhammed is his Prophet).  

As well, you need to do some reading - Islam is by no way unique in history in inciting violence based upon faith (Wars of Ideas).   You can start with the Thirty Years War.

 

[Mojo Magnum]

you certainly do have a way of summing things up.

read I shall.

 

[GNR]

No offense taken, and sorry my knowledge of Islam is limited.

 

[Mojo Magnum]

well Infanteer,
I certainly hope the CF improves my reading comprehension.  There is so much info on that thread, in your post alone,  incorporating all that into applicable understanding could take .....awhile.

I am starting to sense that I have been mistaken in attempting to understand the people by understanding their religion.  While this will work for simple things like rituals etc.  A 1000 years of factions is a different matter entirely.

whew, i think i need a drink ;D

 

[Infanteer]

I am starting to sense that I have been mistaken in attempting to understand the people by understanding their religion.   While this will work for simple things like rituals etc.   A 1000 years of factions is a different matter entirely.

No - I think you are on the right track here, but you are only halfway there as it is important to understand that religion does not exist in a vaccum.  Understand people by how they interact with their faith and how their faith interacts with the outside world.  That is where I think the real importance is.

Cheers,
Infanteer.

 

[Mojo Magnum]

where did you gain your understanding of this subject?