Is there an "official" answer

[Future Pensioner]

I have read through numerous threads on this forum and can not really find one that is suitable to post this question in, nor have I found a suitable answer to the question.  So I hope all of you, especially the Moderators, will bear with me and cut me some slack on this.  Here is my question:

Is there an "official" answer on why Reservists are paid at a rate of 85% of their counterparts in the Regular Force? 

Please, I am not looking for opinions or snide comments on this one, but an "official" answer that hopefully has some "official" references to it.  Maybe there is not "official" answer and if there is not, I would appreciate if someone would let me know that as well.

Thanks everyone for their time. 

 

[241]

I would be willing to guess that it is because a Master in the reserves more often than not has only 3 or 4 years in (relatively no experience) while a reg for one likely has at least 8 or so, therefore why pay us the same as a reg force (more experienced) counterpart...

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Could it also be more incentive for people to make the CF their primary career vice having it secondary to another career and or education? Its an unusual question for someone that has been in for 22 years though....

 

[Future Pensioner]

Its an unusual question for someone that has been in for 22 years though....

Which is exactly why I have asked about an "official" answer, as I have heard many "unofficial" explanations and opinions over the years. 

 

[PO2FinClk]

I remember seeing the definition spelled out but and the old CANFORGEN's have since been repealed. I know that the CANFORGEN which initially announced this increase stated the rationale behind the difference in pay.

Some of the reasons were that Reservist's are not removed, or have to uproot, from their family envrionement in that they are not subject to be posted on regular intervals to locations which they have little say, and sometimes none, in the matter. As well RegF members are directed to go on tours and such as Reservists always have the option of saying no.

Those are some of the factors in the determination of Reserve Pay. Note that this 85% salary was quite a raise from about 5 years ago when it used to be about 60% or something of the sort.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/newsroom/view_news_e.asp?id=396

http://www.dnd.ca/site/minister/eng/restructuring/e-p4-c12.html

The Department of National Defence states that reservists should be paid at 85 percent of the regular rate for their rank, a differential we accept given the "unlimited liability'' that regulars face and NDHQ's right to post them anywhere without their consent. But some ranks, especially junior NCMs, are paid substantially less. A corporal, for example, receives 67.7 percent of the Regular Force basic rate of pay, while a 2nd Lieutenant gets only 72.7 percent.

 

[dapaterson]

A study was conducted in the 80s, comparing training and experience at the journeyman level for  a group of occupations, Regular Force and Reserve.  These differences, coupled with the reduced upheaval of Res versus Reg service, lead to a recommendation that Reserve rates of pay be set at 85% of Regular Force rates of pay.

Implementation was delayed during the Government of Canada's pay freeze in the 1990s.  And the ranks of Pte, OCdt, 2Lt and Lt use different formulae, providing greater than 85% of pay as a tool of attraction.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

Note that this 85% salary was quite a raise from about 5 years ago when it used to be about 60% or something of the sort

In Oct 97 Reservists along with the rest of the forces got a substantial increase in pay (first raise after the decade long pay freeze) thats when they bumped up from 65% to 85% of Reg force wages.  Now for my speculation.

Being both a former reservist and now reg force I can say that for MOST not all trades the coursing in the reg force is Longer, more detailed and the consolodation time (time between courses) is the same. ie Reg force guy goes to work every day for a year and Res guy goes to work 2 days a week (maybe). not saying the reservists are any less quality but it must be recognized that to fully integrate a reservist into the reg force may require further OJT.  Not only that when a reservist goes on a Class C contract they are considered to be on Reg force service and are paid accordingly.

 

[navymich]

not saying the reservists are any less quality but it must be recognized that to fully integrate a reservist into the reg force may require further OJT.  Not only that when a reservist goes on a Class C contract they are considered to be on Reg force service and are paid accordingly.

However, on MCDVs, you have reserves on Class C serving side-by-side with reserves on Class B.  The "core crew" billets are considered operational, and therefore the personnel in those positions make 100%, while those doing the same job (and sometimes more, being there on OJT etc) are making only 85%.  Yes, sometimes the people in the OJT billets are there short-term.  But often they are bounced from position to position, which total months of employment, yet they are still only making Class B wages.

 

[Disenchantedsailor]

well said,

but the MCDV's have only 2 req force pers on them, I may be mistaken but the class C "core crew" jobs replaced the old reg force jobs from the minesweeper days, but like I said I could be wrong.

Also the Class B guys don't pay R&Q but the class C guys if I'm not mistaken do, but you'd be the expert on that end, I'ts been 8 years since my last class b (before my reg force days) ps can't wait airmich my msg should be out soon, as early as tommorrow maybe

cheers

 

[navymich]

IIRC, you pay R&Q only if you are over 180 days.  For 179 days and under, you don't.  But I remember there also being something about not paying if you are at sea?  If someone knows offhand on that, or I'll look it up tomorrow.

I have known people that are on Class B for over 180 days, and people on Class C under 180.  I sometimes think life was easier when we could live onboard ship if we didn't have a place of our own!

I'm not sure about the whole minesweeper-to-MCDV thing though.  But I do know that MCDVs aren't the only ones on Class C for NavRes, as PSS is also getting it.

 

[aesop081]

However, on MCDVs, you have reserves on Class C serving side-by-side with reserves on Class B.  The "core crew" billets are considered operational, and therefore the personnel in those positions make 100%, while those doing the same job (and sometimes more, being there on OJT etc) are making only 85%.  Yes, sometimes the people in the OJT billets are there short-term.  But often they are bounced from position to position, which total months of employment, yet they are still only making Class B wages.

Mich...those people on Class B may very well be doing the "same job" but they dont have the liabilities to go with it.......

 

[Stoker]

Mich...those people on Class B may very well be doing the "same job" but they dont have the liabilities to go with it.......

Please explain "liabilities"

 

[MJP]

What aviator is referring to is that those people signed up for a specific job/task.  They will not endure any postings, they will not be told to deploy overseas(unless they want), they can quit anytime they want and a) go back home or b) quit to get a Class B job that they like better.  Reg Force people don't have those options and hence have greater liabilities.  We have gone over this ad nauseum on the site.  If you want do a search on terms like Reserve vs Reg force and the like.  Good reading if you can ignore the childish antics on both sides by some trying to pit one aganst the other.

 

[Future Pensioner]

Thanks for all the replies, but I do not think I am any futher ahead (although PO2FIN CLK came really close - thanks).  

I guess I am even more confused when I read that the two most common thoughts seem to be the difference in "experience" and the "lack of liabilities" especially when the same Reservist gets the "100%" rate when the agree to deploy overseas or are deployed on certain Domestic Operations - i.e. ice storm, floods, forest fires, etc.. - this would seem to dispel the two "common thoughts".

I do not want to start any heated debates over this, but I am still left wondering if there is an "official" answer on this subject.

Thanks again.

 

[Stoker]

What aviator is referring to is that those people signed up for a specific job/task.  They will not endure any postings, they will not be told to deploy overseas(unless they want), they can quit anytime they want and a) go back home or b) quit to get a Class B job that they like better.  Reg Force people don't have those options and hence have greater liabilities.  We have gone over this ad nauseum on the site.  If you want do a search on terms like Reserve vs Reg force and the like.  Good reading if you can ignore the childish antics on both sides by some trying to pit one aganst the other.

Yes I can see that, as I member on Class C I have those liabilities now as well.
Thanks for the clarification.

 

[aesop081]

What aviator is referring to is that those people signed up for a specific job/task.  They will not endure any postings, they will not be told to deploy overseas(unless they want), they can quit anytime they want and a) go back home or b) quit to get a Class B job that they like better.  Reg Force people don't have those options and hence have greater liabilities.  We have gone over this ad nauseum on the site.  If you want do a search on terms like Reserve vs Reg force and the like.  Good reading if you can ignore the childish antics on both sides by some trying to pit one aganst the other.

Thanks MJP

 

[PO2FinClk]

It's really simple, as stated within other posts.

- Yes the reservist gets deployed, unless he chooses to stay home that morning, not quite for RegF.
- If the reservist does not like his job, he is free at anytime to either get a new one or simply quite.The are not subject to Postings
- Not all reserve trades have the same level of qualification a RegF pers, this is based on job employment and limitations thereof. The MP trade for one stands out in my mind, or does a ResF Stoker have the level of quals and experience as RegF?

*Edited for spelling.

 

[Stoker]

It's really simple, as stated within other posts.

- Yes the reservist gets deployed, unless he chooses to stay home that morning, not quite for RegF.
- If the reservist does not like his job, he is free at anytime to either get a new one or simply quite.The are not subject to Postings
- Not all reserve trades have the same level of qualification a RegF pers, this is based on job employment and limitations thereof. The MP trade for one stands out in my mind, or does a ResF Stoker have the level of quals and experience as RegF?

*Edited for spelling.

You right the reserve stokers do not have the same qualifications as the regs, although we preform the same job and have more responsibility as our regular force counterparts. Some of us do get Class C but don't collect tech pay.

 

[aesop081]

Some of us do get Class C but don't collect tech pay.

No such thing.......

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pay/engraph/2006_NCMResForcePay_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=28

Reserve MOCs are divided into standard/spec1/spec2 trade groups, just like RegF ones.  Wether you are on class B or C is not relevant.

http://www.forces.gc.ca/dgcb/dppd/pay/engraph/payo2tg_e.asp?sidesection=3&sidecat=28

Now if your MOC is "standard", as i beleive yours is initialy, no one, RegF, Res  class A or Res class B bets "spec/tech pay"

 

[big_johnson1]

Keep in mind reservists on class B contracts are still expected to show up and perform daily, just like those in the reg force. They also are expected to parade on evenings and weekends with their class A brethren. You can also be "told" if you are on class B that you are going somewhere, although it's not overseas.

(And before I get flamed over this, yes, you can get out of a class B contract if you want to, but I know with my old unit, if you pull that without a good reason, you probably won't get another contract. Granted I've only had experience with one reserve unit.)

Engineers in the Air Force get trained to Reg Force standards on Reg Force courses. Unfortunately there is often a training delay as some of the courses only have 1-2 reserve slots, and those are spread out over the 4 AEF units across the country.