Is the mission in Afghanistan winnable? Canada AM August 22 Poll
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OldSolduer
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I do believe that there is a conspiracy afoot to have Canada withdraw from Afghanistan. That's why there are polls like this and the MSM is going along with it.
RHFC_piper
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That's a pretty open ended question; Is the mission in Afghanistan winnable? Jeez.
Exactly... Seems a little too black and white.
The former CO of my unit, upon returning from tour, made this point while addressing a Legion assembly;
"Victory in Afghanistan wont be won by NATO, the UN, Canada or any of the coalition countries; it will be won by the people of Afghanistan."
(of course, I'm paraphrasing).
But this is exactly it; how is CTV judging victory?
PMedMoe said:What a stupid poll. What do they mean by "winnable"? ??? This isn't a baseball game. :
Exactly... Seems a little too black and white.
The former CO of my unit, upon returning from tour, made this point while addressing a Legion assembly;
"Victory in Afghanistan wont be won by NATO, the UN, Canada or any of the coalition countries; it will be won by the people of Afghanistan."
(of course, I'm paraphrasing).
But this is exactly it; how is CTV judging victory?
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I can't see how Joe Shmuck can see if we can "win or lose" in Afghanistan. I mean, they probably have zero experience with anything related to the military (Not to say I do, just that I am much more informed then others), and they can actually believe that the mission in Afghanistan will probably be a failure. I have zero experience in blasting for gold or whatever, so how can I tell someone how some things are done? This is like the poll, just different wording. This poll is so stupid, I still can't believe it.
End of rant.
-Deadpan
It's CTV we're talking about, remember. Only take it as a grain of salt.RHFC_piper said:
End of rant.
-Deadpan
B
belka
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RHFC_piper said:
Exactly. No military power in the world will be able to defeat the Taliban. Eventually, the Afgan people will have to decide for themselves, NATO and the coalition can only do so much.
RHFC_piper
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NINJA said:
As much as that is true, the actual point of the statement is; there will be no gain by NATO/UN/Coalition forces/Nations by a victory in Afghanistan. The gain will be for the people of Afghanistan and their victory will be when they are able to maintain security without international intervention. This is really the only victory NATO, and by association, Canada, can strive for; an Afghanistan with a stable government (whatever form that may be), a solid security force, a fair justice system and strong economy... The only benefit coalition forces will gain from this is a stable region and the knowledge that an oppressed people have been given a chance at freedom.
Thus, the people who will be victorious at this end state will be the free people of Afghanistan.
As for the Taliban; the best way to defeat them in Afghanistan is to show the people how much better off they are without them. To accomplish this, we have to support the people, allow them to progress without oppression and protect them from those who would prevent this, until such a time as they have accomplished enough to want to protect themselves from those who would have them subdued and oppressed. This is what is going on now with the mission; Reconstruction, Education and Security. But it will take time... At least a generation or two. But, either way, it is the people of Afghanistan who will benefit from the labour of the coalition countries.
Personally, I believe we, as a free society, are morally obligated to help, in any way, any oppressed society at least gain the opportunity to attain freedom. But, that's just my point of view.
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" To accomplish this, we have to support the people, allow them to progress without oppression and protect them from those who would prevent this, until such a time as they have accomplished enough to want to protect themselves from those who would have them subdued and oppressed. "
Ok, a fair point to make.. but at what cost as a nation are we going to allow ourselves this goal? By this I mean how much more in lives, materiele, and money can we as a nation actually dole out before our resolve collapses? Our soldiers can do the job.. that is not an issue, but the civillain populace can, and will only take so much of our loved-lost before they demand an an end to the hand holding(of the Karzai gov't) that NATO is currently doing in Afghanistan. The Karzai government is an important first step for this nation...but it isnt doing enough. I personally think that Karzai is expecting the NATO coalition to do it all(eliminate the taliban, and rebuild the nations infrstructure) and then hand him,or who ever it will be to succeed him the keys to the nation at little or no cost of his government. As a former soldier of our country and now a private citizen, I have the luxury of seeing both sides of the coin. And trust me.. the water cooler banter I hear every day is the constant " When will it all end,and how? Are we ever to see the soldiers come home?". I know what it is to be proud of the work our troops are doing and the horrible cost it has to accomplish those tasks, but will it all be worth it in the long run? Will the Afghans be able to stand on their own in the world stage and say to the rest of us "ok we can do it now." I truly do wonder. Ubique
Ok, a fair point to make.. but at what cost as a nation are we going to allow ourselves this goal? By this I mean how much more in lives, materiele, and money can we as a nation actually dole out before our resolve collapses? Our soldiers can do the job.. that is not an issue, but the civillain populace can, and will only take so much of our loved-lost before they demand an an end to the hand holding(of the Karzai gov't) that NATO is currently doing in Afghanistan. The Karzai government is an important first step for this nation...but it isnt doing enough. I personally think that Karzai is expecting the NATO coalition to do it all(eliminate the taliban, and rebuild the nations infrstructure) and then hand him,or who ever it will be to succeed him the keys to the nation at little or no cost of his government. As a former soldier of our country and now a private citizen, I have the luxury of seeing both sides of the coin. And trust me.. the water cooler banter I hear every day is the constant " When will it all end,and how? Are we ever to see the soldiers come home?". I know what it is to be proud of the work our troops are doing and the horrible cost it has to accomplish those tasks, but will it all be worth it in the long run? Will the Afghans be able to stand on their own in the world stage and say to the rest of us "ok we can do it now." I truly do wonder. Ubique
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I have to agree, the polls that are always being released proclaiming that Canada should pull out for the lack of public support is really getting old. Stop asking the left wingers and ask the average Canadian who feels he/she has been protected by the mission at hand. If we don't fight the War on Terrorism in another country, we are going to be fighting it here, which is not what the Canadian people want.
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Of course the war in A-Stan. is winnable,we in the West have the
military power to crush these, basically primitive tribesman,however
if we lose we will lose it at home,in Canada;just as the Americans
lost the Vietnam and Korea, at home, not on the battlefields. There
are forces at work here in the West,that I personally do not understand,
that seem to revel in the defeat of our efforts overseas.They are willing
to grant our enemies sanctuaries,and huge tactical advantages, giving
humanitarian concerns as their reasons.These concerns do not seem to
extend to our own troops,however,and I see the Western militarises and
their leaderships less and less eager to engage in these "one hand tied
behind your back"wars.
IMHO the winning of the hearts and minds of the A-Stan.population
is very important, but shutting up or counteracting the voices of
defeatism is equally important if we are to fulfill our aim.
Regards
military power to crush these, basically primitive tribesman,however
if we lose we will lose it at home,in Canada;just as the Americans
lost the Vietnam and Korea, at home, not on the battlefields. There
are forces at work here in the West,that I personally do not understand,
that seem to revel in the defeat of our efforts overseas.They are willing
to grant our enemies sanctuaries,and huge tactical advantages, giving
humanitarian concerns as their reasons.These concerns do not seem to
extend to our own troops,however,and I see the Western militarises and
their leaderships less and less eager to engage in these "one hand tied
behind your back"wars.
IMHO the winning of the hearts and minds of the A-Stan.population
is very important, but shutting up or counteracting the voices of
defeatism is equally important if we are to fulfill our aim.
Regards
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Yes it's a winnable war. But the outcome won't be anytime soon. Generations down the road will tell if we have done the right things at the right times. And the people of Afghanistan have to be willing to accept the fate of thier own direction once we have pulled up stakes and headed home.
The general public thinks all the CF does is shoot stuff and nothing else. I think the CF needs to have a general public eye openeing session to show what the war truly IS about and that's not just killing Tallywhackers and AQ's . Show the rebuilding efforts, show the kids getting an education, show the women who now are treated as human beings instead of property. Show the stuff that is making the difference and why we need to stand firm with our comrades in arms.
Cheers.
The general public thinks all the CF does is shoot stuff and nothing else. I think the CF needs to have a general public eye openeing session to show what the war truly IS about and that's not just killing Tallywhackers and AQ's . Show the rebuilding efforts, show the kids getting an education, show the women who now are treated as human beings instead of property. Show the stuff that is making the difference and why we need to stand firm with our comrades in arms.
Cheers.
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I agree, I think the CF really has to show what it is about and not just soldiers helping out at the Stampede or what traffic techs do at a CFB. The general Canadian should know what the soldiers are really doing for their freedom before it comes to Canada.Snafu-Bar said:
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What bugs me is the Pundits who espouse historic examples as to why we can not win in Afghanistan. I do believe and follow the saying. " those that do not learn from History are doomed to repeat it". but in conflict I don't believe it is as clear cut.
Anyhow to keep it on topic, Bosnia was not solved in a Day, Year or two. It took and is still taking a long time to have them change. Cyprus was even longer. Most types of missions that Canada has been involved with are long duration ones. However they are usually wrapped up in the Blue Beret Beenie. And even if the Canadian Public tends to forget that we did take casualties there it was if anything a passing thought for the few who are aware of it. But this is a War and we are dying in "debatable" high proportion. And the narrow eye of the MSN will focus on what they believe are the Points of Intrest that the JQ Public are interested in. Bad Sells, controversy is a sweetener so the more the better. Heaven forbid if Objectivity or pertenant questions for both were asked and answered. And it is a war Canada is fighting in so lets not get out of hand with the Oh what a good job we do over there. ( That would be propaganda and Canada only does the negative propaganda )
Oooops bit of a sarcastic rant.
I think it is winnable, not anytime soon, not in the timeline that is currently laid out with the current force structure. But it is ( if they allow us ) very winnable.
Anyhow to keep it on topic, Bosnia was not solved in a Day, Year or two. It took and is still taking a long time to have them change. Cyprus was even longer. Most types of missions that Canada has been involved with are long duration ones. However they are usually wrapped up in the Blue Beret Beenie. And even if the Canadian Public tends to forget that we did take casualties there it was if anything a passing thought for the few who are aware of it. But this is a War and we are dying in "debatable" high proportion. And the narrow eye of the MSN will focus on what they believe are the Points of Intrest that the JQ Public are interested in. Bad Sells, controversy is a sweetener so the more the better. Heaven forbid if Objectivity or pertenant questions for both were asked and answered. And it is a war Canada is fighting in so lets not get out of hand with the Oh what a good job we do over there. ( That would be propaganda and Canada only does the negative propaganda )
Oooops bit of a sarcastic rant.
I think it is winnable, not anytime soon, not in the timeline that is currently laid out with the current force structure. But it is ( if they allow us ) very winnable.
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Yea, exactly. Now that Harper has practically told the Taliban they won by announcing a pull out date, we just can't with the time we have been given which is really to bad.helpup said:
Up The Johns!
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C/MCpl. Burwell said:
The pull out date was 2011 before. Harper just re-iterated the fact for his political agenda solidifying what the flock of sheep wished to hear, that yes we are ending it. It's not to say that it won't get changed due to unforseen hostile actions on behalf of someone, or a tranfer of those troops to another "agenda" after. Either way we have a couple more years of trudging to go and get the job "done" for the people of Afghanistan.
Cheers
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Yes, but now it has been pushed off of any agenda for future negotiatian. After the pull out date, if Canada is ever expected to go back and help, it will be as a blue hat (peacekeeper) and there is a good chance we will lose even more soldiers in that type of situation. But you are right. We do have a couple of more years left to Git 'R' Done!Snafu-Bar said:
Up The Johns!
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C/MCpl. Burwell said:
Harpers betting on another term, and as such a shot to flip back to heat up the cold side....
Whoever takes over still has the option to extend or manipulate the dates as per confilicts or potential NEW conflicts, or whether anything subsides in the wake of the two elections both here and down south. Either way anything a politician "promises" is going to be broken. Anything set in concrete is guaranteed to be broken, and anything they try to back out of will be screwwed up to the point of idiom in the process. So i expect status quo for a few more years depending on changes in attitude after the election.
Cheers.
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Yes. I have to say that you're right.
Up The Johns!
Up The Johns!
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How can anyone answer such a question ? Define winning ?
Someone wrote :
The only benefit coalition forces will gain from this is a stable region and the knowledge that an oppressed people have been given a chance at freedom.
And I would like to add :
Canada's intervention in Afghanistan is showing the world that Canadian soldiers are among the best in the world ! We are fighting a war with heart, courage and integrity. In this regards, we are WINNERS.
Someone wrote :
The only benefit coalition forces will gain from this is a stable region and the knowledge that an oppressed people have been given a chance at freedom.
And I would like to add :
Canada's intervention in Afghanistan is showing the world that Canadian soldiers are among the best in the world ! We are fighting a war with heart, courage and integrity. In this regards, we are WINNERS.
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